Gather At The Well: The Art of Multi-Leader Calibration - Lindsey Fuller and Marisol Pineda Conde

Sustainable leadership is not about being identical—it’s about being aligned.

In this episode of Gather At The Well, co-leaders Lindsey and Marisol pull back the curtain on the real work of co-leadership—what it takes to align, recalibrate, and lead with intention. They share how they’ve built a leadership model rooted in alignment, trust, and professional authenticity at The Teaching Well. 

From weekly syncs and systems audits to somatic check-ins and tough conversations, they offer practical tools and honest reflections on what it takes to lead together with intention. You'll hear how they navigate misalignment, build psychological safety, and stay grounded in shared values without sacrificing individuality.

This is a masterclass in shared leadership, psychological safety, and critical hope—rooted in love, truth, and a belief that we are stronger when we lead together.

Tune in to hear:

🤝 How co-leaders (and leadership teams) can align their values, decision-making styles, and leadership approaches
📆 Practical tools and rituals for co-leadership alignment, like weekly syncs and systems audits
❤️ How to navigate misalignment with curiosity, care, and honest conversation

Episode Overview

• Tone-Setting (1:00)
• Building a co-leadership relationship: creating unified vision, establishing psychological safety, and discussing values alignment (6:00)
• Alignment and calibration practices + weekly meeting structures (12:00)
• Dots and Squeezes Somatic Practice (16:00)
• Lindsey and Marisol’s six core co-leadership values (23:00)
• Homework + Critical Hope (32:00)

Explore the Shownotes: www.weareforgood.com/episode/theartofmulticalibration

Chapters

• 0:00 Welcome to Gather at the Well
• 2:45 Co-Leadership Beginnings
• 6:15 Building Psychological Safety
• 12:40 Sustaining Leadership Alignment
• 16:00 Dots and Squeezes Practice
• 19:00 Human-Centered Leadership Values
• 30:45 Critical Hope and Closing Thoughts

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:02

I'm Lindsay and it's time to gather at the well. We're on a mission to microdose wellness, create human-centered systems and retain our greatest asset our people. We believe it's time for podcasts that teach moving beyond thought leadership and towards change leadership. Join us and our friends at we Are For good as we model the way with concrete examples from the field and gain tangible tools, because it's possible to build adult work cultures. We don't need to heal from. Let's get into it. Hey yo, welcome back to Gather at the Well. So excited to welcome you in and I'm hyped because if you tuned into season one of Microdosing Wellness, it was mostly me running my mouth, musing and, of course, demonstrating the vast inspiration I experienced from my team and our client work. But it was more of a solo reflection and in this second season, periodically I'll be inviting in guests and I'm thrilled to have my comadre and co-leader, marisol Pineda-Conde, deputy Director at the Teaching Well, joining. Welcome in, marisol, so excited to be here today.

Speaker 1: 1:17

So we want to jump in and, as y'all know, we are focusing primarily on human-centered leadership as well as policies in this second season. It's really anchoring back to the notion that in times of uncertainty, in times of high stress, we are committed to identifying what's in our locus of influence and control, and both of those are so buckle up. It's time to jump in. Before we get to some of the questions that we have schemed up for y'all, we'd like to just welcome in a couple of breaths to settle into the space. I don't know how your day has been, but we want to invite you to get comfortable, sit back and open your heart and mind to these reflections. Just take a moment to get comfortable in your seat or if you're standing or driving, gazing off to the horizon or out a window, you might take three deep breaths, in through the nose and out through the mouth, welcoming in that audible exhale. Two more just like that, and you might be multitasking, and if that works for you, bless it.

Speaker 1: 2:51

But if you really want to center this one focus task, I invite you to reflect on either a current co-leader, whether you are on the leadership team, or you've observed leaders inside of your organization leadership team, or you've observed leaders inside of your organization, or perhaps it's a past example that you have calling in that individual or that team, and when we kind of stir back up and get ready to jump in, you might even write down those names or that name on a post-it to hold them steady. As you take in our content today and think about what's applicable in your own organization or life, you might just pinpoint that individual or that team and when you feel ready, you can flutter those eyes open, write it down and hold it as sort of a problem of practice. All right, dope, let's dive in. So if you don't know, I guess if you follow me on LinkedIn you'd know how high regard I hold Marisol.

Speaker 1: 4:01

I don't really want to lead with anyone else ever again. I hold Marisol. I don't really want to lead with anyone else ever again. Not that I can't fold other folks on, shout out to Rebe and Aaliyah, and there's something really unique when you feel totally matched, and so maybe we should tell them how we met. Marisol was a former client of the teaching well. It was a phenomenal school leader and at the point where I was going to be taking on an organizational leadership role at the teaching well and the founder at the time was going to be heading out on maternity leave, I was like I'm gonna need some support here and Marisol came to mind immediately to the entire team and we set up a 15 minute call. What happened, marisol?

Speaker 2: 4:44

Yeah, my recollection of that was that it was an exploratory call and you came in and you were clear about what you wanted and I forget. But you were like here are the three things that I'm looking for this, this, this and this, and I'm really looking for a road dog and I said mm-hmm. And then I said I'm your girl Right. And at that time the role was like operations, which I was like absolutely excited to be shifting from a really front facing role into a role that wasn't doing as much front facing. And that's where the story begins.

Speaker 1: 5:23

I also have never heard anyone get so excited about operations. She's like spreadsheets are my love language and I was like bless that?

Speaker 1: 5:31

Absolutely yeah. So it started. It was quick, we were clear and loyalty and collaboration came easily for us. So you know, as we think about this and so much of our work has been ensuring that everything we do is aligning to the values and the mission of the organization, really tending to the team I wonder if we can share a couple of ideas with folks. So you're starting a new co-leadership relationship or you're already in one and it and the energy is funky. You're still storming and trying to norm. If you think about the stages of team development, what are some of the tips or tricks that help co-leaders create a unified vision in your opinion? Sol?

Speaker 2: 6:18

I think what was true of that interaction that I want to like thread into our work and partnership together is that it was very evident from the start that we were aligned on values beyond the organizational values, that our values about people, that our values about the relationships that we held.

Speaker 2: 6:39

There was an opportunity to explore and align on those values, and so when I'm thinking about folks entering into a new partnership, it has to be opportunities to engage with each other that allow for those values to come to the surface beyond the mission. We know we are supportive of the mission or else we wouldn't work there, and we also know that likely the value. Sometimes we inherit those, but we have some synergy to them. Again, we wouldn't be there otherwise. But what are the values that we hold personally that we can really lean on when things get sticky, that are more personal and you know things like being human centered that I know you and I deeply align on, or the idea that relationships really are important and we want to nurture and support relationships in our workspaces and outside of them. Those are the places where I think there's opportunity for folks to really unpack and find bridges, especially when times are sticky.

Speaker 1: 7:40

Yeah, exactly, and I think about how often we fold a new leader in and we expect them to just hit the ground running and so much of our meetings or onboarding process is really technical work, often referenced in educational spaces and nonprofits as well. We skip over the adaptive components of relationship building, of trust building, of establishing psychological safety, and so definitely a recommendation that you ensure there's some split it might not be 50-50. It may look more like a 30-70, but that there are meetings just dedicated or ideally, in-person connections or even retreats where you're saying, like, who are you as a human? Some of the leadership workshops that we do help co-leaders externalize their life map. What are significant life events that have brought them to this org, to this role, to this time? Life events that have brought them to this org, to this role, to this time?

Speaker 1: 8:50

We also recommend building community agreements or communication norms, externalizing our working styles, right, like there are actually technical things you can do that still dial into the adaptive connection that's required to trust someone to lead alongside you. Yeah, I think psychological safety also came really easy to us. I wonder can we get a little meta with that? What are some of the ways that we intentionally built psychological safety if not named.

Speaker 2: 9:14

I would say that one of the things that was most valuable for me as somebody that was coming into the org was your lived authenticity. Into the org, was your lived authenticity and that in that process of you feeling authentically who you are, and I remember distinctly you saying, like I'm too old to code switch and I was like, finally, finally, Because it is it's part of what contributed to my psychological safety.

Speaker 2: 9:40

It's part of what contributed to my psychological safety. I felt safe to be fully who I was because you were fully who you were and there was space for both of us to do that. And some of that is and that's not to say I want to be really clear that's not to say we don't hold a high professional regard, but that there were these elements or these moments where we were working one-on-one, where we could fully unmask and say here is what I'm thinking or here's how I'm approaching this, and there was both modeling and permission to do that. And that contributed greatly to that psychological safety, even in spaces that were, as I've mentioned before, a little sticky or that felt complex.

Speaker 1: 10:32

I think, to layer on it's modeling, it's permission, especially as co-leaders with a supervisory reality, right, like, even though I regard you as my co-leader technically, I'm also your supervisor. So there's a layer there of complexity that has to be unpacked. But I'd say it's also an active practice that professional authenticity search for. Like, what permission do we actually need to unmask? After both of us left either school leader or district leader roles where masking was required, we actually had to unlearn and we had to create space to be like you know what that's no longer serving me, or I'm exhausted carrying this particular code, switching load, or, I think, even thinking about how do I want to be in relationship to work.

Speaker 1: 11:29

Because I remember distinctly our first couple of meetings. We would do like a four hour, five hour marathon meeting and we were like, oh snap, we can both really hold it down, like we'll get after it. We talk about the cat gif. If y'all are into gifs, look at, just type in a cat typing. That's what we looked like. But we actually then had to have some explicit dialogue around what type of mom, wife, friend, daughter do we want to be? We haven't had that invitation and now we're leading the organization. We set the tone. We can establish greater work-life balance. Let's explore it first with us before we bring it to the team.

Speaker 2: 12:10

And that, going first, that socio-emotional connection that we built, was really essential and I think that underscores that notion that we were finally in a position where we could dictate policy, practice and model what we wanted to be true.

Speaker 1: 12:29

What a privilege and honor and a huge responsibility. Absolutely, I wonder if we just quickly externalize some of the ways that we sustain alignment, because alignment is one of my love languages. I have learned that loyalty and alignment are key for me experiencing psychological safety as a global majority woman leader, and Marisol and I invest a significant amount of time weekly, monthly, quarterly and annually making sure we are calibrated. It is an investment and some folks are like, ooh, couldn't that be an email? It could not in fact be an email, cause when it can we use it?

Speaker 1: 13:10

When we need to use Slack, we do that too. But we meet to open every week with our weekly sync. That's actually all leader, our whole leadership team, for an hour. On Mondays we have a midweek supervision meeting, because I believe coaching and supervision should be sacred and what's often lost in co-leadership responsibilities is that you're co-working, you're getting ish done, but you're not necessarily also affording that person development or feedback or thought partnership. And then we close the week with a system sync and that's typically a longer meeting 90 to two hours where Marisol and I are able to dive into bigger projects like establishing a policy, drafting it, revising it, thinking big picture, finances, budget, etc. So I wonder, sol, like if you have any reflections on kind of that three pronged approach to weekly calibration.

Speaker 2: 14:07

Yeah, I think it's one. It's critical. It's critical to staying aligned. It's also responsive, like there is space, if something comes up throughout the week, for us to have a placeholder and we're not scrambling for things. That doesn't mean that we're not creating intentional touch points if something does emerge and we have the opportunity to huddle up via a phone call or another way of engaging with each other. That's more responsive when something does emerge.

Speaker 2: 14:41

But I think that for me, the true test of that alignment came as we started growing the team and so when we started adding directors to our team and thinking about where in those spaces is there opportunity to fold folks in and are folks seeing value in that? Because you and I might see value because it aligns and it matches our working style. But when we bring additional sort of team members into the space, does that structure also create value for them? And that's been particularly true in that weekly sync where we have all directors present and there has been an emphasis on alignment across the team and that really setting the tone for the week as an opportunity to align the entire team and create momentum in ways that is in service of the org. And so I do think that it is a tremendous investment and it's absolutely worth every moment that we are able to connect. And it's flexible because we might not meet all three at those three junctures every week.

Speaker 1: 15:48

Yeah, would love to let the listeners dive into a little bit of rest as they chew on some of our concrete examples. I wonder if you'd be down to facilitate a little somatic and then we'll dive into a couple more concrete reflections.

Speaker 2: 16:08

I'd love to bring a practice that we call dots and squeezes, and this is a practice that invites us to use our hands as a body anchor, and what I love about this practice is that it is accessible to us at all times, in all spaces.

Speaker 2: 16:25

It doesn't require us closing the eyes, so I might invite you to do that if that feels right, but it invites us to think about the palm and to visualize that we have dots throughout and we're gonna take our pointer and our thumb and we are going to squeeze those dots. And so, again, an invitation you might do this with eyes open or eyes closed, to find a pressure that feels nourishing. For some folks, there may be a need to bring more pressure. For others, that gentle touch might be just enough. I'm inviting you to work your way through the palm and then transition to squeezing and tugging the fingers, of course remembering to breathe as we do this practice and as you make your way, perhaps shifting to the other side, gently squeezing and tugging. I love this practice also because it can be done under a desk, in a tense moment in a meeting, or perhaps even as we transition into different spaces beautiful.

Speaker 1: 18:23

And, yeah, if you are in a co-leadership relationship that is tense. We encourage you to identify somatics and mindfulness practices that can occur real time as you interact or integrate that tension to try and stay present, stay in your body, stay engaged and persevere through any dynamics that maybe feel at your edge. Beautiful. Well, would love for us to think a little bit about the cost of misalignment, right? Because, again, we do invest a lot in our people and we do invest quite a bit of time meeting with each other, time in good company, with feedback, especially tasks that we're procrastinating on or feel like they have implications across roles or departments, or potentially even ones that feel challenging due to finances, change management, buy-in, etc. But I just wonder about some of the potential ways that we can identify misalignment early or stay anchored in our values while we try and navigate those moments. Any thoughts on that, marisol?

Speaker 2: 19:47

I would say that the practice of checking in on alignment as a proactive action is invaluable, as a proactive action is invaluable, and that some of what is maybe contributing to misalignment is the absence of that practice.

Speaker 2: 20:06

And so if there is a feeling either folks are sharing with you examples of misalignment I heard a different message from this other leader, examples of misalignment, I heard a different message from this other leader or if there is a felt sense that there is misalignment, I would really encourage folks to check in right, to create space to check in on that alignment. I think often misalignment is shared back with leaders from other voices and that can be tough. And so an invitation also, as we're in this calibration, especially for new partnerships, of what it means to assume positive intent, to stay in our body and to be able to not be responsive or reactive to those instances of misalignment and create space to say let me check in, or taking a pause. And I think often it can be really challenging, right, especially if there's been intentional work to have conversation and yet we're experiencing this misalignment. It can be really dysregulating.

Speaker 1: 21:12

Yeah, I was just connecting with what you were sharing and like, somatically, how does that manifest? Right, and it's like that experience of confusion or uncertainty, real time, when you're like, wait, but I thought we had. And sometimes shame, embarrassment or frustration can emerge. When you're like, oh God, we didn't create any space to talk about this and now we're live in front of our team or we're live in front of our board or we're live in front of clients. And that's why, to folks that question our upfront investment, I say that is harm reduction, that is community building, that is discernment building and it's the calibration that is not just responsive but preventative.

Speaker 1: 21:58

Right, I do want to name that there should be regular checks on the efficacy of those syncs, because if it gets to a point where it could be an email when you don't, maybe you need to shorten the length of the meeting, maybe you skip the cadence to every other week, but just seeking feedback regularly around, like is this still working for us, is this serving us or are we off the floor too regularly for this? Because oversinking and, I would also argue, unclear job descriptions or a lack of role clarity can lead to role overlap in unsustainable ways. Right, the goal is to align and then build momentum and go and do the thing. It's not to then take every meeting across the week together. It's building confidence, independence, clarity, and then it's enacting that likely individually so that you can still get to the many demands of the work. So, yeah, I appreciate you. I appreciate you thinking about that.

Speaker 2: 23:02

Yeah, I'll layer on to that. It is important for the team to also have clarity on the, especially with a job description, when it may be an ED versus a DD conversation, even if there is alignment. So that's another element that feels really important. When we start to overlap too much, we confuse our team and that may be a lot of energy that can be diverted elsewhere.

Speaker 1: 23:30

Yeah, I hear that. I think ultimately we want to offer though it seems obvious, maybe we need to state it never disparage one another, and it is more than okay to take a pro-social pause, real time in front of any stakeholder and say you know what? We've touched on that topic. But I'd like to circle back with my co-leader and ensure we're 100% aligned before I confirm. Can I loop back to you by end of day or can I loop back to you in the next 48 hours? That's a part of a leadership presence that cannot be overstated. You, it is within your right to respond to in time, not to react in the moment and then have to clean up the rupture on the other end. At the end of the day, I often say we don't have to agree, but we do have to align, and if we're unable to align within that meeting structure, then we're unable to communicate effectively outside of it. So we may need to also say let's put an asterisk on that, we need to come back, no decisions have been made and let's actually keep that under wraps until we have further time to iron out the details. Absolutely Beautiful.

Speaker 1: 24:39

So I think the last thing I just wanted to share with our community here at Gather at the Well is a specific tool that we have co-created, marisol and I, really articulating our what we call co-leadership, human-centered values. They underpin everything we do, and you can go back to episode three of our microdosing wellness series, where we talked about operationalizing your values. How do you get clear on your individual values before then brokering and navigating the org values and then leadership values with a partner right, and so we'll be excited to share those with you in the blog. But I wonder if there's one or two because there are six that you'd like to share, marisol that are most resonant or feel most on top.

Speaker 2: 25:31

Yeah, I think the one value that stands out the most is the value of orienting to our team as everyone having the right and deserving of coaching and supervision, and I think that informs so many of our policies, of our structures, of our supervision approach, of our definition of success right and how we're supporting folks to get there, but that when we were able to align on that, we had so much clarity on the other side that I think that value really informs the way that we work together and also informs how we interact with our team.

Speaker 1: 26:18

Yeah, for sure, because our budget communicates our priorities, and so that co-leadership, belief or value also dictates the benefits that we provide our team, the learning opportunities, the investments we make in them, beyond compensation, and that feels really central. Yeah, is there a second one that you'd like to bring forward to the community? I?

Speaker 2: 26:40

think the value of the middle path is one that feels also really resonant, particularly as we're thinking about this co-leadership, this notion that not one person has all the answers, and that often we're bringing our collective expertise, our collective experience to figure out what is the path forward, and it's not mine or yours, but it's what's in service of our org and our team. I think so often we experience that in our alignment conversations and I know that is a value that we orient, especially when things are hard or where there feels like there is a value misalignment. We're always trying to take that approach of it's not binary. But how do we stay in the gray and figure out the path forward?

Speaker 1: 27:28

That's the value that you will see underneath the specific examples that I shared in episode two self and collective care. It's really this continuous pursuit for us of supporting our team with both professional authenticity and living collectivism, which is not necessarily ingrained in the everyday workplace. So if those are ideals that you hold, those don't happen by chance. These are intentionally designed internal PD conversations, coaching conversations, team activities at retreats and, more importantly, there are pre-conversations and alignment that occur with the director's team to live that value. Yeah, I want to share one more that I think is really key and it actually sort of sinks number four and number six soul. But number four for us is change is hard, it doesn't have to be traumatic and that really guides a lot of our change management. Our communication cascades how we lift the veil for our team on challenges that the org is facing or strategic investment areas, et cetera, on challenges that the org is facing or strategic investment areas, et cetera. But it's really linked to number six, which is every employee is treated with dignity and respect until the very end, and so as a retention focused organization, it's dope when we can retain our internal team as well. I think it's demonstrating that we're professionally about that life, as I spoke about in one of our change leader episodes. But I also think it's unrealistic to think that you will retain 100% of your people, or 100% of your clients will renew year over year, and we are often experiencing a lack of human-centered leadership. When folks decide they're transitioning Whether you're a school leader and you do, intent to return forms and folks let you know in February they're not coming back, do you cut all of their coaching meetings and observations If it's a nonprofit teammate who's indicated that they are not going to be returning for the next year? Right, are we like, ooh, we could save some money, so we're going to cut your PD budget? The disinvestment in people preemptively is really problematic and too common, and so for us we need to depersonalize, I think to a certain extent someone's transition and try and find again that middle path of what's best for them and what's best for the organization. And, no matter what, we're going to treat them with dignity and respect all the way until their final time, because we're a part of each other's professional history. We want to make sure folks leave our orgs without venom in their mouth and we also know that we're whole humans trying to do the best we can, and so I really value that, and so are we. Okay, and we will make mistakes as leaders, and so don't forget that too.

Speaker 1: 30:21

The us versus them narratives between staff and directors, between teachers and admin, is a dynamic we're constantly working to address with our clients, because it is a distraction from the work of centering those most marginalized that you're working to support, but it's also an unnecessary barrier or like a wall. It's a wall between people who, if they could link up in solidarity, would achieve a greater impact together. As homework, we're inviting you to reflect on two questions. You might do this individually and then bring it to a co-leader or share it with your leadership team. What are your human-centered leadership values and how do these values show up for yourself and your team? In other words, how would you make those measurable and observable so that folks can see you living your values? As always, we love to provide you all with a couple of affirmations that can be used across your next week. Marisol, I wonder if you'd like to share any affirmations for the community?

Speaker 2: 31:31

Yes, I'd love to share an affirmation that emerged from my partnership with the teaching world when I was a sitting principal, and that affirmation really spoke to when I am fully my authentic self, I give permission for others to do the same.

Speaker 1: 31:49

And I would add, we can do hard things so long as we choose each other. I might add one more, linking back to the start of this conversation around how do you launch a relationship that is co-leading? How do you establish psychological safety? I can unmask with my co-leader. It will help us reach our goals. Like you, it has to start with you. You have to be self-aware, you have to be vulnerable, you have to be open. We can't align if we're just trying to navigate each other, our personalities, our preferences, our triggers, so as we close out with a critical hope.

Speaker 2: 32:39

I'm wondering if you are feeling anything, any inspiration coming through soul, and then I'll cap us off. Yeah, my critical hope is that we can anchor, continue to anchor, in the belief that, once we've made it to a position that has power, privilege that we can make space for others and that we can continuously do that.

Speaker 1: 33:00

And I think when I started this episode saying I don't want to co-lead with anyone else, it's because it's not just that we're matched in terms of gifts, and I truly want that for every other leader to understand that you don't have to be excellent in every area. You just have to be self-aware enough to know what your strengths are, where your areas of growth are. That doesn't mean we don't continue to pursue professional development and grow a skillset, but when we can rest into our superpowers individually and as a collective, that's where you actually achieve greater sustainability. I also think that we are providing a corrective experience for our team to have leaders that aren't workplace abusers, and that's my critical hope. My critical hope is that leaders who are getting feedback, or folks are too scared to share it with you, who know you're burnt out, who know you're doing harm, who know that you are saying one thing and doing another, that before you decide to step out of a leadership role, that you decide to welcome someone else in with you. We don't want to lose you in the field, but you may need help, you may need a different perspective. We're stronger together. So that's my critical hope is that folks that have been telling themselves I'm not good enough, I just keep making mistakes, maybe my time is done and some of y'all it is and bless that. We love you and we want you to transition with ease and joy.

Speaker 1: 34:37

But some of y'all, we need you to stay. You just need to get a co-leader. That's my hope, my prayer and my invitation. Do some reflecting. We're here at Gather at the Well. Come back to join us. We hope that you have a beautiful day. Thanks for tuning in, all right y'all. Thanks for coming to play at Gather at the Well, the podcast that teaches. If you like this conversation, come visit us online at theteachingwellorg and hit us up on our socials. Remember to visit the podcast page to download a couple of useful tools to get your life and heal up your work.