We Are For Good Podcast - The Podcast for Nonprofits

593. Cultivating Empathy in a Divided World - Dr. Payal Beri, RK Empathy

• We Are For Good • Season 10

Share episode

Meet Payal. She’s an organizational psychologist, empathy advocate, and founder of RK Empathy. For nearly two decades, Dr. Beri has empowered leaders, communities, and individuals to connect on a deeper level, helping us see that we have more in common than we often realize. She’s on a mission to break down the divisions that separate us and build stronger, more connected communities💪 Tune in to hear how emotional intelligence and empathy can transform your leadership and your organization 🧠💙

💡 Learn

  • How empathy bridges divides in today’s polarized world
  • What an empathy-based approach looks like in action
  • Practical ways to cultivate emotional intelligence in your organization

Today’s Guest
Payal Beri, PhD, Psychologist + Founder, RK Empathy

Episode Highlights

  • Payal’s story and journey to where she is today (3:55)
  • Payal’s transition to organizational psychology and empathy work (9:15)
  • Emotional intelligence as a tool for accountability and empathy (16:30)
  • Empathy and the Reframing Perspectives Framework (29:05) 
  • Intimate Changemakers Dinners (37:55) 
  • A powerful moment of philanthropy in Payal’s life (46:10)
  • Payal’s One Good Thing: Just be curious and patient with yourself. Be kind to yourself. Be patient with others. (50:00)
  • How to connect with Payal (51:45)

For more information + episode details visit: weareforgood.com/episode/593.

Join us on 1/23 for ImpactUp: MULTIPLY

Join us on January 23rd for ImpactUp: MULTIPLY, a dynamic virtual gathering by day and in-person local meetups by night - happening around the world. If you’re looking to grow or start a movement, or deepen the community engagement of your mission - this day is for you.

 Head to weareforgood.com/impactup to sign up for free today. 

Support the show

Become a Member and Get All-Access to Everything We Are For Good!
Experience the Impact Uprising Membership by We Are For Good: an ecosystem to learn, connect + grow in the power of a value-aligned community. Members gather monthly with Jon + Becky at exclusive members-only meetups + get video access to all new podcast episodes in an ad-free experience + so much more! Learn more + join us at weareforgood.com.

Say hi👇
LinkedIn / Instagram / Facebook / YouTube / Twitter

Speaker 1:

Hey, I'm John.

Speaker 2:

And I'm Becky.

Speaker 1:

And this is the we Are For Good podcast.

Speaker 2:

Nonprofits are faced with more challenges to accomplish their missions and the growing pressure to do more, raise more and be more for the causes that improve our world.

Speaker 1:

We're here to learn with you from some of the best in the industry, bringing the most innovative ideas, inspirational stories, all to create an impact uprising.

Speaker 2:

So welcome to the good community. We're nonprofit professionals, philanthropists, world changers and rabid fans who are striving to bring a little more goodness into the world.

Speaker 1:

So let's get started, becky, what's happening?

Speaker 2:

Happy New Year, my friend. How are you? Oh my gosh.

Speaker 1:

Do you remember the text that I sent you right after I got off the phone meeting this amazing human?

Speaker 2:

Yes, I mean, it was probably 0.4 seconds after you hit the off button on the Zoom. And what an incredible opportunity to take an Impact, uprising founding member who is doing so much to pour empathy, civility, justice, kindness into the world and spotlight her as the first episode of 2025. Y'all, we hope you're feeling the hope, we hope you're feeling the possibility and the power of joy, connectivity and kindness. So settle in today because we've got Dr Pileberry on the podcast today. Her bio says that she's a global empathy speaker, founder, psychologist and creator and founder of RK Empathy, which we're going to dive into. But when we first met her, she said, y'all, I'm just a quirky nerd. And we were like we have found our people and I have on my LinkedIn profile John, I know you've seen this and I have on my LinkedIn profile John I know you've seen this that I am an empathy guardian and I want to protect every opportunity that we can to connect with each other in kindness, listening, creating spaces of belonging, and Dr Berry has been doing this for 18 plus years. Her work's been truly at the intersection of empathy and social impact, so you all are in for a treat today.

Speaker 2:

Just a little bit of background on Pyle. She is committed to empowering people, leaders and communities to realize that we have more in common as humans than otherwise led to believe by those who benefit from our divide. She has spoken about the power of empathy and transformational impact in tons of organizations, like little known names, like NASA and Google and lots of wonderful nonprofit organizations, among so many others. Her work is really about championing us and empowering us, our organizations, to lean into cultivating an empathy-based approach that grows your impact exponentially with your community whilst spreading positivity and prosperity. She says that empowering a world where empathy and accountability triumph the walls of division, that is her goal and, my goodness, are we blessed to have you on this podcast. Come on in here. Founding Impact Uprising member. We are so glad you're here, dr Berry. Oh, my goodness, thank you so much.

Speaker 3:

It's so glad you're here, dr barry. Oh my goodness, thank you so much. It's so lovely to be here. I just I probably get to spend the whole day chatting with you guys, so I forever, forever first day, long episode, let's go, yeah marathon.

Speaker 2:

Let's make this a marathon the filibuster of all podcasts.

Speaker 3:

So I'm here for it.

Speaker 2:

Well, you're no stranger to podcasting. You've got your own podcast.

Speaker 2:

And I love that you do, because you're spreading these messages of love, of kindness. These are not just words we talk about in kindergarten, y'all. These are transcendent opportunities for us to connect and grow into our full vibrancy. But before we dive into this and believe me, I'm going to be taking a lot of notes from you, pyle we want to get to know you. We want to know about little Pyle growing up and her heart for social justice. How did you get into this work?

Speaker 3:

Oh, my goodness, I think that for any of us it's not coincidence, it's nothing like that, it's like the little pieces in our life just navigate us on that path, and it was no different for me. I had a very interesting life. Childhood, we moved around a lot. So before the age of 10, I'd already lived in I don't even know like 18 different places, but you know about four different continents, you know across like eight different countries, and we hopped around a lot. And no, my father was not in the military, he was actually a corporate chef. So you know, but we, yeah, and so you know, I grew up in the Middle East and call myself a third culture kid, so Indian by ethnicity, grew up in Egypt, dubai, iraq, and then, when we moved to America, my welcome to America was Queens, new York, and my second day of class. So I was in second grade and my mom had walked me the first day just for me to know the path and it was literally just at the end of the you know our road. And the second day or third day I was like walking by myself and I'm on the sidewalk and I'm walking and a woman in the building, apartment building, like screams out telling me to get the F off the sidewalk and I'm just like I don't understand what's happening. And that was my welcome to America, right, but it was.

Speaker 3:

I spent second grade in Queens, new York, tampa, florida, edison, jersey, and I spent third grade in Melbourne, australia, and then fourth grade onwards was back in the US and so, having moved around to so many different countries and cities and having to just pick up and go and settle in and understand everything, like, of course, like kids are kids, no matter where you go, but it really taught me how to connect and how to relate to people, because you're in Tampa, florida, you're in the South, and that is a different experience than when I was in Australia and I experienced everything from really hard bullying based off of racism as well as deep compassion, and so it was, I would say, the earliest indicator for me of just learning how people operate and how to connect and why.

Speaker 3:

You know, even though everyone's ultimately looking for the same things of joy and happiness and wanting to feel belonged and all this, but the way it manifests really just changes based off of the cultural values of like the dynamic there, and that obviously led me into this curious space. I remember we were like in fifth grade or fourth grade and my mom asked me you know, like what do you want to be when you grow up? And I don't know like what fourth grader would say this, but I was like I would love to be at a mental hospital and I just want to climb into the sewer system and just stay up there and wait for all the nurses and doctors to go away, so that I can actually see what would this person be like if they were just left by themselves and weren't expected to be something, for you know whoever's there and just who are they like as human?

Speaker 3:

Like who says that A quirky nerd who has so much empathy in her heart.

Speaker 2:

That's who.

Speaker 3:

I would say that.

Speaker 3:

And so that naturally led me through, you know, my career in clinical therapy and I did home-based counseling in New York City, and that was also my first experience with you know, going into neighborhoods that I had never experienced before and seeing some of my clients, and just like seeing their stories firsthand, you know, and it's like I come from such a different narrative and world, and now I'm experiencing someone else's narrative and world and we're in the same space, same time, same everything, and so that just really again opened up my eyes more of how I may be living in this world through one narrative, but it's not the only reality, and so how can we accept my reality and how can I accept their reality? And it doesn't mean that one negates the other, they both coexist.

Speaker 1:

I mean holy cow, have we ever had a background story like that? B?

Speaker 1:

I mean, we've talked to hundreds of people on this podcast, but I think, just like the experiences that you've been witnessed to the community that you've built that's so diverse and so varied, from such a young age, has given you a different lens to this. So I'm so excited for this conversation to talk about empathy, to talk about the power of accountability and how, like you say, it could triumph the walls of division, like what a beautiful place to start this year in a country that's really still very divided that's just in the States. So I would, I'm curious I mean you touched on your clinical therapy background, your organizational psychologist background how does that, those experiences really inform the work that you're doing now in empathy, like take us into that world, and how it's kind of informing the work that you're doing today?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, you know, I always thought about my work as so, prior to even clinical, I was actually a film major and I was a dancer, choreographer, and I thought I was going to be in that space of just a naturally creative mind and went into clinical therapy because, you know, I will be honest, I think that when people think about careers in psychology, we're not as well informed about all the different ways you can have a career in psychology, and so a lot of times we go into clinical therapy because we think that is what you do, which I definitely was.

Speaker 3:

Like this was an incredible experience, but my brain has always been a very macro thinker and so, even though one-on-ones were great, I always was like it's not enough, I want more, I want to make a bigger impact, like how do I do that? I think the one-on-one work is incredible and absolutely necessary, but my brain just works a little differently. And so, as I was in that space, I, you know, went into organizational psychology, started working in corporate and, I'll be honest, I, you know, worked in corporate for about 10 years or so, building global programs and all this stuff and but you know, I mentioned this to John before is, like I always say, like taking a creative choreographer and a clinical therapist and putting them in a corporate environment is like putting a really thick wool sweater on a naked body. It is the most uncomfortable thing and itchy, so itchy.

Speaker 3:

But what I will say is that I'm grateful for that experience because it actually taught me how can I talk to business leaders and help them care about the things that matter. And so you know, as a clinical therapist and psychologist, I understand psychology, understand human behavior. What the org psychology stuff did was help me understand how to now make this relevant and how to make people care, who don't necessarily know how to care about something that is so abstract for them. And so, taking all of this, when I stepped out into building my own business and our campathy, their focus really became is that everyone is coming into things from their perception, their worlds, and so it is hard to relate and understand something that you're just seeing on media, that you're just reading on articles, depending on which magazine, which newspaper, which outlets, that you're reading from the community that you're spending time in. So whatever that is is informing the way that you see the world. And so if you've never stepped into a low income area, if you've never, for example, here, like an urban city girl here, never been to a farmland area and grown up and seen what life is like in rural America, it is as much as you try to understand it. It's really hard.

Speaker 3:

So my goal really became on how do we bring things to life for people to experience it and to people to go through the motions of it so they can actually be like, oh, I get it Right. And so what I always say is that the misconception of empathy is that and I get this a lot where people will say, you know, well, I'm not a mother, so it's too hard for me to empathize, and it's like, well, that's not what empathy is. You know, it's not about necessarily having the exact same circumstance or having gone through the experience yourself. That's not actually humanly possible. What is is that you have to look at the undertone of what's happening emotionally here. So you know, if, for example, becky, like you know, let's say you're a new mom and you, someone puts one more thing on your plate and you're ready to rip your hair out and you're like I cannot, right.

Speaker 2:

Oh, that was me yesterday. Not the new mom part, but still, yes, point made.

Speaker 3:

So what I'm looking for is what is the underlying emotional response Becky is having? Is she frustrated? Is she just overwhelmed? Is she feeling underwater here? Have I ever felt those things? I have I felt underwater. I felt like if someone does one more thing, I'm just going to scream. So I connect to that emotional response and I can be there from that place. Have I ever experienced grief, disappointment and it may not be to the level of grief right and that's the other piece is recognizing that just because you handle emotions in a different way, it doesn't make it better or worse. It's just being relevant to it or being relative, and so I look at it as the misconception of really helping people understand that. Empathy is about understanding the emotional response and seeing that what would life look like if, every time you try to get ahead, you're pushed down to the floor? And so if we can help people see that and they've been through that then we can actually have dialogue.

Speaker 2:

I mean, where do I even begin to respond to that pile Like you're? Just, you're pulling up so much in me and, granted, I'm an Enneagram too, so I'm high feeler anyway. But the thing that I love about what you're saying and what your entire ethos is, is this expression of curiosity and of openness and of understanding that all of us are not benefited by staying in our echo chambers or in the vacuums. And while we gravitate toward people who we value, align with, it's very important for us to hear the perspectives of other people, because we don't know, because we haven't experienced everything, because we haven't felt it in the way someone else has felt it, because of lived experience, because of psychosocial issues, because of whatever else is going on in our life. So I just I love this conversation.

Speaker 2:

I thank you for breaking it down and, if this is your first time, even exploring empathy, thank you for coming into this conversation. But empathy is just like to define it very easily is that you can relate to someone else's feelings and diving into that. And so I want to ask you a really specific question about emotional intelligence, because I feel like I grew up with. Iq is the thing that you measure and it is the definition of your intelligence, and now we know so much more about what emotional intelligence can awaken in self-awareness and belonging and all of these other things. So I want you to talk to our audience, who are all these incredible heartwired individuals, whether you work in nonprofits, social enterprise or whether you're just a fan of doing good. How do you see emotional intelligence as a tool for fostering both the accountability and empathy in organizations?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, that's such a great question. You know emotional intelligence and again, with that you know it's a piece of it doesn't mean that you're not going to have hard moments. It doesn't mean that you're not going to have challenges difficult, you know. Crisis or you're going to not, like someone you know or have, have that kind of tension in a meeting like those things will still come up. It's about how you handle it right. It's about how you create trust. It's about how you create that space for people to be able to open up, and I think what you touched on earlier about curiosity is what does that? I'll give an example.

Speaker 3:

Actually just from yesterday this happened. I work in this co-sharing space that's meant for mission-driven founders. It's an awesome space and I was sitting here and I was introduced to someone who you know. We're having a conversation about just social impact and politics and we have somewhat different perspectives on what's happening in the country and the world and just where we think about things from. What was really wonderful about that conversation was that, even though him and I had different perspectives on the same issue, there were no voices being raised. There were a lot more questions being asked and what we actually did was that, when he was actually sharing something that I had no clue about, instead of wanting to knee-jerk, react and say something in response to it, I simply listened and I asked questions. I could feel myself getting a little uncomfortable because, again, right, your body's reacting to unknown threat and it just means that it's unfamiliar. That's what to unknown threat. And even though it, and it just means that it's unfamiliar, that's that's what's happening internally. So I'm aware of the fact that my body is doing this, so I'm able to, in the moment, stop myself from being impulsively reacting to something to soothe myself, and instead I am pausing myself to say, okay, I recognize that I'm feeling uncomfortable in my body, so let me double down on this and understand him instead.

Speaker 3:

So I went to that place of asking questions. You know, this is something that I actually am not familiar with. Can you explain more about this? You know, I'd love to learn where you found this Like. Can you share the article with me? What is, what is it about this that you know you are feeling so deeply connected to?

Speaker 3:

So it was also where I stopped myself from asking questions from well, why do you believe this? Well, why is that important? Right? So, even recognizing the word, because when we use the word why or if we, even if I had said to him like you know well, you think this way. But how do you think it makes other people feel right Like me using the word you in that sense, it immediately sends up these walls and creates a space of um. I have to now defend myself. But when I ask questions from a place of, so how, what? Walk me through this. It creates curiosity, it creates interest. The other person is now like, oh, they're actually interested in me, they're not just trying to corner me into something.

Speaker 3:

So there's a difference of what happens is you go into conversations, you go into meetings, you go into decision-making with a place of genuine interest and curiosity and showing the person that, hey, we can figure this out, because our goal and mission is the same thing. We all want a safer community, we all want good education, we all want better healthcare, but how we approach it, we clearly have different perspectives. But if I shut him down, then I shut him down from actually having a good conversation, and maybe, maybe, if we could have that good conversation, we might actually find some commonality there. So that's where, then, that accountability shows up, because I'm now role modeling, how I want to be also spoken to, and so actually in that conversation there were moments where I would say something and he would have a well, you know this on the other side, right? So for every story I had, he had a counter story. So I paused there as well and I said, okay, and can they both coexist?

Speaker 3:

And so you know, give a example of that story was we were talking about just, you know, the whole defund, the police, like messaging and the PR of it, right, and I was, you know, I was mentioning like and with that there's a truth and reality that Black Americans are scared when a cop stops them. And he immediately was like well, I know cops that are scared to stop Black Americans because, and even if they're doing something wrong, because they're afraid of getting videoed and racial profiling and everything. So I paused him there and I said, okay, so can both coexist? And he's like well, yeah, of course I'm like okay, great, so it's not actually a story of tit for tat, it's not a. Well, they had this and so we have this.

Speaker 3:

It's what we're seeing here is the fact that we have two communities that are equally hurting, that are equally wounded, that are equally, have a lot of mistrust. So the root of this is the fact that we need to find a place for these communities to find trust with each other. So what would that look like? So let's forget about going into the one upping each other in stories and situations and let's get to the root of that. So that's where then we were like, okay, what would that look like? And so that is what emotional intelligence can do in an organization, in meetings, when you're having difficult conversations.

Speaker 1:

Holy heck. I mean this is revolutionary.

Speaker 2:

I want to respond to all of that.

Speaker 1:

I mean y'all. I feel like we need this conversation on lots of levels, relationally, even in our family units and our closest community, to have more productive discussions when we're coming at things from different angles. But I think of, like the change makers listening to this, that you're trying to translate an experience or a problem that a lot of your supporters are never going to, you know, have to face themselves, like us, dialing in and understanding how to have these kinds of conversations where we can slide into feeling having a commonality of, of emotion. To understand another perspective is so powerful and so missing in so much of today's discourse.

Speaker 3:

And it's okay to be uncomfortable. We have just become a culture of and maybe it's it's you know millennials reacting to baby boomers in the way that we were raised, but now it's like everything needs to be soothed, everything needs to be like your feelings matter, like it's okay. It's okay, you know, and it's like, yeah, your feelings matter. Including growth only happens when you're uncomfortable.

Speaker 2:

That's it. And it's like these conversations are going to be uncomfortable. These experiences are going to be uncomfortable let's put that on the side. But guess what they can also be, because two things can, to your point can be correct. They can also help us grow. They can also widen our purview and understanding. They can also give us a greater sense of connectivity with other people and I think even just the way that you sort of broke down that example show that your word choice matters, the way that you show up matters, the way that your body is positioned, and I feel all of that as someone with one of my highest core values is fairness and justice.

Speaker 2:

But I also have ADHD with the undercurrent of impulsivity. I get very triggered when things are unjust and my impulsivity and my high emotions get triggered and I want to react. But the reality is, if we're reacting, we are not fully tuned in and present. If we're reacting, we're preparing our rebuttal and it just feels like we need a different language of connectivity right now. And empathy is such the great anthropological experience I feel like I mean we're for Good. The podcast, the experience has been the most eye-opening anthropological experience of my life to just sit with humans and hear their story and feel changed by them. We just have to know, in this new year, in this new world, in this new everything, that we have the choice to move differently through it, and I just think you're giving such great tips about it. So thank you for letting me get into my podium.

Speaker 3:

I love it, let's keep going. You know, with that the other you touched on something really, really important is that fact of, like, that impulsive, you know, response and the reaction. You know response and the reaction. And I think that's where we are today because, because you know, I, I talk about this and I'm actually working on a white paper, that, will you know, I just finished my dissertation this year, so I'll work on a book later, but, like, so, like I need a little bit of a break from research right now.

Speaker 3:

But you know, one of the things I'm working on is just really helping people see that and understanding themselves, like, what is the intent and motivation behind your impact? Is it being led with fear or being led with empathy? And the reason why that's so important to understand and distill is because, even within the nonprofit world, right, there's a lot of scarcity mindset, there's a lot of, you know, not enough mindset. And so when, when we're operating from that place which is tapping into our primal emotional response, right Of the fear of fighter flight, of, you know, crisis mode, so we're responding from a place of we're making impact, we're doing things, but we're being motivated by fear.

Speaker 3:

So what are if I was to use it and compare it to like medical terms, right, what are the long-term side effects of leading with fear and what are the long-term side effects of leading with empathy?

Speaker 3:

And if we were to do a side-by-side comparison of that and look at, you know, whether it's organizations, whether it's communities that are operating from a place of empathy, and what that does to a community, it may be a little bit slower, in the way that you know, change happens, but how does that actually, as just our bodies are healing, how do we heal communities that way? Versus, if we look at the world and the state that we're in today, this is a side effect and a long-term impact of fear-led impact. So, when we're able to take and have more consciousness about how we're responding right and that reaction and everything that we're doing, what we're able to do, is that, once we have a good hold on, ah, okay, it's this instinct that's acting up, it's this that's acting up, that's when we can actually elevate ourselves to like the higher emotional responses that we are capable of getting to, but we have to be open to working through them.

Speaker 2:

Oh my gosh, that's some vulnerable, scary stuff that I'm here for, just for the record.

Speaker 3:

I know, you know what? I kind of compare it to going through one of those carnival fun houses and all the funny mirrors, right, and it's like dun dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun dun. And you're like, oh, these are all the different versions of me going through the merits. Oh my gosh.

Speaker 1:

I just think, like you're, you are tangibly expressing the values in a new lens for me over here because we talk, care about the long game of what that leads to and also everyone matters, like I mean, this conversation is very much core to how we see world changing really happen. So I want to talk about cultivating empathy specifically within our organizations. I mean, what is an empathy based approach look like in practice? And you know what are some tentpoles that you would guide us to.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, so you know, I always think of a framework I call it reframing perspectives, and it's compassion for self, empathy for others, accountability for both, and so what I always say is that, in order to actually have empathy for others, first of all, it's not about you, so don't make it about you. It doesn't involve you.

Speaker 1:

Oh my gosh, that was a.

Speaker 3:

TED talk right there. So to be able to actually activate empathy in its purest form, we need to first understand and have compassion for ourselves. And what I mean by that is not just self-care and it's not just you know, oh, like these are my strengths and these are my weaknesses, like great good, I'm glad you know that piece. But it's also recognizing and having an understanding of what is the narrative that you're living in and so being able to take leaders through that path of like again, right, like it's just self-awareness, it's unconscious bias, it's really understanding that. How did I come to this narrative that I am? Through the experiences? How do I actually sit with the uncomfortable parts of myself as well and be okay with that, be okay with the fact that, yeah, I grew up with this and that shaped this perspective of me and I recognize that that is not you know, that is aversion, you know, or that is something that I am uncomfortable with. I can feel the uncomfort thing that's happening in my body. So when we work in organizations, it's helping first leaders to understand their nervous system. It's helping leaders to actually understand the power of just getting a hold on their reality, of their you know, of the world that they live in, the language that they use, and breaking all of those pieces down. Because once we have that piece, then when we go into the space of empathy and you're in a meeting or you're about to come up with an initiative that you're like, how do we make this initiative so that we're more inclusive in the way that we approach different markets? Right, we look at that from a place where, then, we're not taking things as a personal attack. Right, if someone has a difference of opinion from me, I'm now not going to go into a place of oh well, you know, I've never experienced that, so I don't know if that's real. Right, we're not dismissing them. Right, we get curious. And when we're in that state, that's when we're able to actively listen, when we're able to give feedback and receive feedback. Right, and we're able to put ourselves in circumstances that are just where we're learning from. There and I think that that is the biggest key piece is curiosity.

Speaker 3:

The other piece is that helping leaders also recognize and differentiate empathy. So there's actually three types of empathy that exist cognitive, emotional and compassionate. And so knowing when and how to tap into each one of those types of empathy, in what type of scenarios and circumstances can also elevate the way, then, that you are engaging your teams, you're engaging your employees, and the way you're connecting to your clients and the relationships that you're building, because it's more genuine when you are really even aware of how you're navigating through that. From there, you're able to now actually take ownership because you've created a space of psychological safety. You've created a space of psychological safety, you created a space of trust, and so now, because you have internal confidence, even with the insecure parts of yourself, you can claim it. You're able to then understand someone else's experience without making it about yourself, without feeling like it's a personal attack on you or your values.

Speaker 3:

A lot of times, what happens is that when we don't do that initial work, we immediately go into a place where we take on experiences as if it's like our deep core identity. But if we can actually like separate that, that allows us to be in a place where we can actually like have healthy communication, conversation, that allows us then to be in a space of like, okay, so where do we take ownership? Right? So who takes ownership over this initiative? Who takes ownership over even the consequences that happen?

Speaker 3:

How did I play a role in this, instead of feeling that, oh my gosh, we made a mistake and now if I say anything like, the shame that shows up, the ego that shows up, like those things will still show up.

Speaker 3:

But now we can actually say like, yeah, you know what I own it, like I did make a mistake here, or even my, my inability to my, the fact that I didn't take action, is still a form of action. Right, inaction is action, and so when we can be in that space of accountability, it's really being like okay. So in this project, what went wrong is I recognize that if I'm a leader, I'm looking at things not just from a place of well, you made that mistake and you did that wrong organization that I could have helped with to. Maybe the process was broken down somewhere that would have helped my team to be able to move the needle further. So what is my ownership as a leader in this and what is the team's ownership in the actual tasks and work that they're doing? So it's bringing all of this together, which then creates more effective processes, productivity, trust and collaboration.

Speaker 2:

I mean, I think people came for the empathy, but what they're going to get in this and I don't want to be too dramatic, but I guess I am because that's my way yes, I think what you were talking about, pyle, is culture shifting. I think it's human centered, I think it is baked in equity and I think this is such a storied moment in time where I really think this should be the great practice of the sector. I think it can change and lift so much. And I want to talk about something that you're doing that's like super operational tactical. That I think is brilliant. Tell us about these pop-up gatherings, like these empathy pop-up gatherings. What do those look like and how are you getting people together?

Speaker 3:

Yeah. So you know, before I do go there, I want to share just one quick story. When we're talking about even just empathy and the nonprofit sector, you know, I think that there is an empathy overload, right In the sense where that's why people are in, that. You know that space. But I will say that I think that there's also when you have empathy paired with scarcity. It creates lack of boundaries, it creates guilt, it creates that space of overwhelm or shame because I'm not doing enough, I should be doing more. If I care about wanting to make a little bit more money, I should feel ashamed for that, because money should not be tied to the good work. But I look at this as you're doing incredible work. You should be valued for that. And it also, you know why, again, back to the whole coexistence piece doing good work doesn't mean that you can't also take care of your own livelihood, you know, and they can coexist and I think that that's also just an important piece. And the second part of that empathy in our work that we do, you know, just talking specifically about a it's not a nonprofit, but Starbucks, for example. And so Starbucks, you know, they started coming into the South side of Chicago and they put their first Starbucks in a place, and in the South side of Chicago, in a neighborhood, and it was doing really badly and the reason, and they were first going to pull it, but then someone on their team actually said maybe we need to actually go into the neighborhood and actually understand the community, right? So you're in the South side of Chicago, you're in a neighborhood that is, you know, very ethnic and they have their specific pastries, they have their specific things that they do, so Starbucks was irrelevant to them because they don't have anything at Starbucks that they would actually eat or that they enjoy. So what did Starbucks do? They switched out their pastries and their food for the food of the local community. That is now one of the top performing Starbucks in the world, and the reason why? Because they use an empathy approach, marketing right. They focus meetings and use empathy to inform the way then that they sell their products.

Speaker 3:

So now to answer your actual your question about the pop-ups. So a couple of things. The thing that I'm actually started this year was the Arcade Changemaker Intimate Dinner Experiences, and these Changemaker Dinner Experiences have been I've hosted them in Chicago, in DC, in New York, and hosting them all across and what it is is bringing together about eight changemakers at any given time and these eight changemakers, when they come here, the rules are that you're not allowed to talk about work, you're not allowed to talk about what you do and you're not allowed to talk about your title or anything related to that, and you can imagine people who care about social impact are like dying to talk about this. So I you know, in one of them I joked. I said I should have a buzzer on the side where anyone says something.

Speaker 3:

I just put a buzzer, it's like yeah, but the point of this experience is that it's bringing people together so that we get to know the human behind the work, and so our entire conversation throughout this is that. I started with navigating who you are thinking about, memories from childhood. Think about a time when a childhood that puts a big smile on your face and it was really pivotal to everything that you believe in. Or what is a grandparent that you feel such deep connection to and you want to carry their legacy on? What is that legacy that you want to carry on about your grandparent? You kind of like inch towards it, and what's so beautiful about those moments is that by the time we get to talking about what each person does for work, it's not till dessert or even after that, and I go around the room and I'll ask everyone so what do you think John does? And everyone will say what they think John does, and then John will say it. Some people are way off and some people are like really on it, and what's so beautiful about that moment is that they've only met John for two and a half hours and now, after John says what he does, they're like, oh my God, that makes so much sense for you Like that? Of course you would do that. It's like they've known John their entire life and when it comes around, what's also really interesting is that, because we've been so immersed into just developing connection and relationship, when we get to John saying what he does, more than likely he's going to forget what he does. He'll be like wait, what do I do? Again, like, oh yeah, that's right, because you're not connecting from an elevator pitch, we're not being on on, we're literally just talking and connecting based off of personal human being and showing how we're all connected. And what's so beautiful about that is I had a dinner experience that I hosted and at the table I had a Pakistani civil rights lawyer who was a refugee, I had a Jewish woman, I had a black American, I had a very, you know, a white Christian all sitting at this table.

Speaker 3:

They didn't initially, I mean, obviously, with ethnicities, you can tell, but like, overall, you couldn't really tell where they stood politically, you couldn't tell where they, you know, stood in terms of their work. But people were connecting with each other based off of this commonality, of just the good, of their experiences of. Oh, my God, you grew up there, so did I, you know. And talking about that part. And so what happened was, by the time, that they actually shared who they are, what work they do, it didn't matter if someone was a Republican or Democrat. It didn't matter if someone was a civil rights lawyer and you had a Muslim and a Jewish woman sitting right next to each other and they were sharing so much with each other. It didn't matter. And if we had started it with this is who I am and this is what I do, it would have refrained that conversation so much more. Yeah, it would have. Yeah, it would have refrained that conversation so much more.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it would have.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, so the Changemaker dinners are a place to kind of cultivate natural community, but from that, I think the pop-ups that you're also alluding to are things that it's still in the works and it's still something that's going to be launching a little bit down the road. But starting with micro pop-ups and what it is is taking a social issue that we have in our world and having people actually experience it by walking through it. So think of it as escape room meets cultural Ikea. The only way out is to go through the whole thing. Cultural Ikea, cultural ikea. It's a maze and you have to go through it, um, but if we were to take a specific social issue like homelessness, um, or, you know, even prison reform, right? So imagine walking through this experience.

Speaker 3:

And the first room is where you're set up to experience what it's like to be set up to fill the system. So you're already, from the beginning, you know you have to go through a series of games or experiences in that first room that has set you up to. There's no way out besides ending up in prison. And so the second room then is you're actually experiencing what it's like to be in prison and you're hearing the voices, you're hearing the screaming. You're smelling things all of it. Then the third room, which is the most pivotal room, is. You're then experiencing what it's like to try to get out of the system, but everything is stacked against you. And so then, after going through this experience and what I will say that a lot of pop-ups and immersives you go through an experience, but then you're left to process it on your own and what happens is it's heavy. You don't have the tools on how to process this or understand it, so you walk out. You're like whoa, that was so amazing. Oh, my gosh, let's go get some pizza.

Speaker 3:

And so that fourth room is where I'm partnering with nonprofits, I'm partnering with philanthropic foundations, I'm partnering with cities and universities, and essentially it's having people come into this fourth room where we now sit around and you're met with someone who's actually lived the life you just experienced and has a conversation, shares with you this is my story, oh, yes, Shares the story. And then from there, it's having you know the partnered organizations that we're partnering with. They come out and now walk you through a journey map, meeting you where you're at. If you're just kind of getting woken up to this concept, ideas, you know you're starting to recognize that CSI and Brooklyn Nine-Nine aren't exactly factual and you're like, okay, so this is the reality of it.

Speaker 3:

So what can be that one micro thing that could change? What is that one micro behavior that could shift right and helping you, meet you where you're at with this? So my goal with this is, you know, for nonprofits to actually bring us in and have your donors go through this experience so then they understand why it's not just about writing a check but actually getting immersed into why your organization needs to exist. It's partnering with universities so that future decision makers, who are going to become lawyers, psychologists, policy workers they're going through this experience and at the end they're actually writing a treatment plan. They're writing a policy they're thinking about. If I was a judge, how would I now navigate this based off of what I just experienced? So we're shifting the way people think. We're shifting and trying to break stereotypes and stigma and we're shifting, hopefully, the way people ultimately start to get educated about policy and the way they vote.

Speaker 1:

Positively obsessed with this concept and your number one rabid fans on bringing this to life.

Speaker 1:

Um, truly, I think you've planted a lot of seeds here of just like what's possible when we put it into practice. We don't just like talk about it, but how do we create these moments of collision that, for good? Just this conversation has been amazing. My friend and I want to ask you about story as we start to wind down, because we believe in stories that really shape our experience. You've brought us back into a lot of them on your journey so far. Would you take us to a moment of philanthropy that sticks out to you, like when have you seen generosity and you're like man that just pinged you in a certain way that has stuck with you over the years?

Speaker 3:

So I'll actually share a story that happened to me and this has led me in the way that I think about helping and supporting other social impact change makers in the work that they're doing social impact change makers in the work that they're doing. So when I moved to, I moved to Chicago in 2016 and I moved there with a job and everything and four months later, you know, I was out of a job. It was a horrible, bad fit and they relocated me everything. But you know, new city, don't know anyone, nothing. So could have very easily flipped out, but didn't. I was like, all right, well, got nothing to lose. Let's see what I can make happen here.

Speaker 3:

I met a woman who's a nonprofit founder for 20 plus years, highly, highly respected, really has created an incredible legacy. I met her in December of 2016, and she was speaking at some women in tech thing. I'd never known her. She's walking off stage. I dart for her and I connect with her and immediately go. Never known her. She's walking off stage. I dart for her and I connect with her and immediately go up to her. I'm like I just meeting you. I loved everything you said. I connect with it because the group that you're supporting is the group that I used to work with when I was a therapist. Can I have lunch with you? Well, that lunch that I had with her in January and I remember it was January 11th 2017, because it was on my birthday so when we had lunch it was on my birthday. So when we had lunch it was a three-hour lunch. After that, we geeked out every quarter and just nerded out on just existential topics, on social justice, all this stuff Fast forward to 2019, when I was actually leaving my last corporate job and I was spilling out this entire vision to her and I was telling her what I want and I was leaving corporate, she said to me that the number one reason that people end up going back into corporate is because of healthcare, and I actually have multiple autoimmune issues.

Speaker 3:

So she knew how important health insurance was for me. So she said, pyle, I believe in this vision so much and I believe in you so much. I want you to make this come true. I don't want you going back to corporate so much and I believe in you so much. I want you to make this come true. I don't want you going back to corporate. I'm going to cover your health insurance through my organization so you can actually fulfill this. And so for four years she covered my health insurance, just so that I would have some form of stability, so that I would actually do the work that I promised that I was going to fulfill. And at that moment it was. How can I not believe in myself if I have someone of this? To me, she's more than an angel on earth. She's a mentor, she's a second mother, she's a friend. She's just so much, and I'm not a unique story for it. She's done things like that for other people, but for me it was what set me on this path.

Speaker 2:

Okay, normally I would have you name this person so we could honor them, but I want to respect the anonymity here. But I just want to point out what I love so much about that story is that she used this empathy-based approach with you to drive you toward building this empathy movement. That is oh so beautiful and that is the power I believe in the practice of empathy. It's not to drive home your points. It's about seeing the beauty and the quirky, nerdy differences in every single one of us, celebrating where we are getting more understanding and openness to it. And, wow, look what happens when you can double down into it. I think you're such a beautiful success story of that and we honor your angel mentor wherever she is, and thank her for that. Pyle, you listened to the podcast before you know. We're going to end with a one good thing. How are you going to bring it all home and wrap a bow around this? What's your one good thing?

Speaker 3:

Just be curious and just be, you know, be patient with yourself, be kind to yourself, be patient with others, as recognize that when people are talking, and even if they're speaking with a lot of intensity, it's coming from a place of just not being heard, not being seen. You know, a woundedness when we approach each other. The best way that we can approach each other, especially if we are on opposite sides of each other, is don't come at it with antagonizing, Don't antagonize, come at it with genuine curiosity and interest and care. And when we immediately even if you think that the leader of the other person's community is just garbage or this and that right, and you want to say those things, you're immediately shutting down any place of connection On the ground.

Speaker 2:

That's it.

Speaker 3:

So, because what you're doing is then you're insulting them because people have started to take on the identity of that. If you're insulting this leader, you're insulting me because I believe in that, and now I'm going to be shamed that if you're insulting this leader, you're insulting me because I believe in that, and now I'm going to be shamed.

Speaker 1:

So approach it with, just be mindful of the words that you're using and how you're connecting. I mean, what wisdom to round out this episode, my friend. You've brought so much to the table. Thank you for your openness, your vulnerability in this conversation, conversation, just the years that you've spent pouring into this and coming to us with such an actionable way that we can, you know better, lean into empathy this year in our work and our families, and just our everyday conversations. How can folks connect with you pile? I mean, you're on Instagram. I know you're on LinkedIn. You're sharing all of this wisdom. What's the best way for people to reach out to you and follow you online?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, absolutely so, of course. Yeah, connect with me on LinkedIn. That's probably where I'm the most active, and obviously you can connect with me on my website with rkempathycom, and tune into my podcast that's releasing next January 15th. It's called Reframing Perspectives with Pyle Berry. So tune into that and I can't wait to have more of this dialogue and can't wait to have you guys on the episodes.

Speaker 2:

Thank you for the invitation. I'm so honored. I just think about little dreamy Pile like 10 years old thinking she wants to look through the HVAC system at someone, and I think that you have moved from there In a non-creepy way, shockingly. Yeah, in a totally non-creepy way Not voyeuristic.

Speaker 2:

Not stalker, but you've set this table, almost literally and metaphorically, for us to just allow people to come in as their true selves, and you've done it with curiosity, with joy, kindness. I really believe this is such a big disruptor for this year. I hope this has spoken to you, community, let's actively listen, let's have an openness to 2025 for ourselves and for others. We can be the ripple of empathy that this world needs, and we do need you in it. So please go check out Pyle. I want to give one more plug for her Instagram, which is fantastic, and please listen to the podcast and happy late birth or early birthday later this week, my friend, thank you.