We Are For Good Podcast - The Podcast for Nonprofits

579. From Burnout to Balance: A Roadmap for Nonprofit Leaders in "Busy is a Four-Letter Word" - Kishshana Palmer

• We Are For Good • Season 10

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Meet Kishshana. With over 25 years in the social sector as an international speaker, trainer, and coach, she’s dedicated her career to helping individuals and organizations reach their highest potential. Her new book "Busy Is a Four Letter Word", dropping Dec. 12th, calls out the toxic culture of busyness and lays out a five-star wellness plan covering everything from emotional health to community care💖 In this convo, we dive into how we can ditch the grind, prioritize our well-being, and build workplaces where vulnerability and support thrive 🤝 Tune in for real talk on leading with compassion and living a healthier, more fulfilling life.  

💡 Learn

  • Why you need to rethink your approach to busyness
  • How to implement a holistic five-star wellness plan
  • The importance of fostering a culture of openness, empathy, and support 

Today’s Guest
Kishshana Palmer, CEO, ManageMint

Episode Highlights

  • Kishana’s journey to writing her book “Busy is a Four Letter Word” (2:55)
  • Exploring the Concept of Busyness (7:40)
  • Rethink Method (13:40)
  • The Five Star Wellness Plan (26:20)
  • Creating a Supportive Work Environment (32:40)
  • A powerful moment of philanthropy in Kish’s life (39:10)
  • Kish’s One Good Thing: Work-life integration (41:55)
  • How to connect with Kish and get her new book (43:25)


For more information + episode details visit: weareforgood.com/episode/579.

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Speaker 1:

Hey, I'm John.

Speaker 2:

And I'm Becky.

Speaker 1:

And this is the we Are For Good podcast.

Speaker 2:

Nonprofits are faced with more challenges to accomplish their missions and the growing pressure to do more, raise more and be more for the causes that improve our world.

Speaker 1:

We're here to learn with you from some of the best in the industry, bringing the most innovative ideas, inspirational stories, all to create an impact uprising.

Speaker 2:

So welcome to the good community. We're nonprofit professionals, philanthropists, world changers and rabid fans who are striving to bring a little more goodness into the world.

Speaker 1:

So let's get started, becky, what's happening?

Speaker 2:

Our bestie is in the house. That's what's up.

Speaker 1:

I'm never going to tire of the day that we can say Kishana Palmer is in the house, that we are for good, Our friend, our repeat guest, our soothsayer of wisdom, of leadership, of kindness, of having the harder talks you know talking about the stuff that's uncomfortable, but Kish makes us all feel safe and that it's going to be okay.

Speaker 1:

And today we're celebrating because Kish has got a big milestone. Not only does she always pour out so much beautiful change thought leadership into this space, but now she's written a book, like she has literally written a book, and she is coming back through. And y'all know us, we don't allow a lot of four letter words on this podcast, but we're about to allow this four letter word on the podcast because her book is called busy is a four letter word and we are going to break this down Y'all. This is a book that we want everybody in the sector and beyond to read, because we're coming off the pause of impact up and we're all looking for more healthy ways to do this work so we don't sacrifice our wellbeing along the way. And I can't think of a better guide than Kish to come along with us today. So let me tell you if this is your first time to be in her presence, let me tell you a little bit about her amazing journey.

Speaker 1:

But she has more than 25 years of experience in the social sector. She's an international speaker I mean just fresh back from Europe, casually as a keynoter, she's a trainer, a coach, and she's dedicated her career to helping individuals and organizations reach their highest potential by day. She's also CEO of Management that's Mint with the M-I-N-T, which is an organizational development firm that champions equity and social justice through practical solutions tailored for today's leader. She's a first-generation Caribbean American and a native New Yorker, now thriving in Atlanta representing the ATL today, and we just love to tap her for all things leadership, for all things like how do we move and process these and truly she's our phone-a-friend. She is one of the closest people to us at.

Speaker 3:

We are for good, and it's an honor to have you back in the house. Kish, welcome to the podcast. Oh my gosh, I'm like, wow, who are they talking about? Oh, that's me. I'm like, who are you? I was like, ooh, that's me.

Speaker 1:

Oh my gosh. And I mean we're just like your hype squad and I just want you to catch everybody up. And I just want you to catch everybody up, I mean you've been a little busy yourself putting together this book and so-. I've been full. Yeah, tell us about the last couple of years, like what led you to do this book. We've heard a little bit about your journey but, like why this? Why now, Catch us up.

Speaker 3:

So you know, one of the things that I kept hearing from leaders as I did keynotes and did trainings and as my team went out to do trainings was that folks felt like they couldn't go back and implement the things that we were teaching the way that they really wanted to, because they were so busy. They were overwhelmed. And one of my big pillar life philosophies is that what you do at the house you're going to do at work, and so I had a curiosity a few years ago about what if my coaching, what if my trainings, what if my sort of like company ethos starts to center around this idea that, before I can talk to you about how you lead in your organization, I got to understand what's happening in your house, and that were chasing this idea of success that, honestly, didn't really align with our own values. And, if I'm being really frank, most of us didn't really know what our values really were. Well, we knew them, but we had put them up on the shelf because we were busy.

Speaker 3:

So I wanted to take a step back from that and go okay, can I design a way of living and being where folks do not feel overwhelmed by just waking up in the morning?

Speaker 3:

next month and I've titled it the five-year hangover because the question that I get the most is about how we are not recovering from COVID but, honestly, the level of exhaustion and apathy and being worn out and running on a treadmill, I think goes back for many of us years in our career, but at least to 2017, 2018 for lots of us, where many of us, particularly mid-career to mid-senior career professionals, started cracking at the seams with no help in sight. So you know, I like to talk, as y'all know. So I say what if I just record into my phone? And then what if I just had the transcription? You know, put it in words and here we are.

Speaker 1:

Giving the people what they want the book. I'm so glad.

Speaker 2:

So who out there is feeling like Kishonna Palmer just wrote a book about my life besides me? Because that is exactly how I am feeling right now. The breaking at the cracks and the inconsistency of what is happening at home with what is happening at work, and the too much of it all is very much a consistent theme in our work, and so, kish one, I want to thank you for writing this book, and I got to tell everybody like Kish was at my house a couple of weeks ago, a couple months ago, and she was literally editing it, this book, and she was reading portions of it out loud and she and I were like in our comfy clothes and we were getting all angry and excited.

Speaker 1:

With your red pins.

Speaker 2:

I mean the red pink was Hawaiian.

Speaker 3:

You're too hot in it, nikki, because you were like that's not telling the whole truth. Kish, I was like get in there.

Speaker 2:

Oh, there was a section I was like go down, say the thing. And she did. It is literally in the book. Like I'm just so proud of you as one of these people in my life who is totally just within my sustainable sisterhood. I know what it's taken for you to write this book. I know what you've had to endure to write this book, and so I want you to kind of give us some tone setting.

Speaker 2:

Let's talk about this, because busy is a four letter word, is your new book and y'all we are going to like start talking about how to stop piling onto your to-do list. We're going to talk about the idea of martyritis, which is in here, how to create this five-star wellness plan that's going to help you rethink your work ethic, how to create new rituals, patterns and rhythms. So let's talk about this book, because you talk about this notion that we have this challenge of the glorification of being busy. Get into it with us. What do you think busy has become? Why do you think it's become such a toxic badge of honor in today's culture and specifically for our friends and impact work?

Speaker 3:

So I'm going to lean in and talk to my fellow Gen Xers for a second and my like older millennials, right Like my- early 80s babies Both of us Great.

Speaker 1:

Thank you.

Speaker 3:

Here's the thing Many of us grew up last key kids, depending on where you grew up in the world. I had a little chain, a little key around my neck. My ex-husband I remember he used to talk about that in kindergarten had a little key around his neck because his mom was at work and we had to figure some stuff out. And so the more you figured out on your own, the more quickly you figured it out on your own, the more involved you were about staying out of trouble, the more you were rewarded. And so many of us were high achievers still are, I noticed.

Speaker 3:

I didn't say overachievers, I don't believe in that, okay, but the heights were hiding. It was just at the top of the Kilimanjaro Heights. You know, we were definitely high achievers. We were in all the things, some of us for safety, some of us for boredom, some of us because that was the safe place. And every time we got a gold star and I laugh about this in new york city growing up in the 80s um, our teachers used to stand in public school at the door at the end of the day and if you got your gold stars for the day, you got a pretzel. It was these big fat dry ass pretzels. But let me tell you what you a gunner for these pretzels every day and if somebody got in trouble and she took away the whole class's pretzels.

Speaker 3:

that's's fighting words. So think about it as early as six, seven, eight years old. We're like gold star for Kish and for those of us who like that feeling of ta-da, you kept chasing it, whether it was sports, or whether you were the chess king or queen, or whether it was your academics or whether it was robotics, because you know, nerd life was okay depending on where you were in the 80s and 90s right, you're speaking, so you just stayed in your stuff and you kept thriving.

Speaker 3:

Then you get to higher ed or you get to your vocation and they tell you be humble, don't take credit, get bigger gifts, move up faster, smile and take it on the chin. And for many of us who identify as women, let's just add in a layer of showing the boob, is all right, put a little knee out there, you know? Yes, a little sexist comment, it's fine. Close the gift, right. And so we were rewarded, regardless of the cost to ourselves. And so we thought we were supposed to be doing. And, depending on how you grew up, what your faith is and this cuts across all different types of faith backgrounds Many of us had to go to school. Go to college, find the person, get married, get a good job, sorry. Get a good job, sorry. Get a good job. Get married, get a house, have babies, love Jesus the end. I know I can't be the only one. Nope, oh yeah.

Speaker 3:

And if you did things out of order, the level of shame, self-imposed and familiarly reinforced and even collegially, that you would get. We want to be sweet, no, no. And anybody who did not conform. We thought oh wow, they're brave. Or oh wow, you know, they're just off doing their own thing. We don't know what's going to happen to them. And I remember I'll tell you one more thing. I remember telling my mom this story when I was little and I said, mom, you know, you raised me and Anthony that's my brother exactly the same, and parents of your age. You raise all your kids exactly alike. And if one kid didn't turn out the way you thought oh, they just fell off the truck it was the kid's fault. I was like we parent to the child because everybody is different. And she said what kind of parenting book you're reading?

Speaker 1:

Wow yeah.

Speaker 3:

That lady didn't even validate my feelings and thoughts. All this education y'all. And so I wanted to be a gold star parent. I wanted to get a gold star from my parents for being a parent. I wanted to get a gold star because I'm oldest, I'm the oldest girl, I'm the oldest kid first in family to go to college in my generation. I wanted the gold girl. I'm the oldest kid first in family to go to college in my generation. I wanted the gold stars. Yeah, me, me, me, me. And because no one had ever said, you know, you could sit down for a second. I saw people who sat down to rest as lazy.

Speaker 3:

And for those of us who have been raising money for most of our careers I know everybody hasn't who listens to the podcast, but if you've been in the space of for most of our careers I know everybody hasn't who listens to the podcast. But if you've been in the space of resource development of any kind, you are on a ticking like the clock is going. So that shows up at work and it shows up at home and it shows up in your social organizations and it shows up when you try to get through you know, the 30 minute at the gym as opposed to taking your time. It just shows up. How fast can we meal prep? How fast, how fast, how fast, how fast your head is spinning. People are going, oh my.

Speaker 2:

God Good job. Way to multitask.

Speaker 1:

How do you do it? Gold stars.

Speaker 2:

Pretzel, way to go.

Speaker 3:

Pretzels in the form of cost of living increases that don't clip up with inflation oh word, we gotta raise though. Pretzels in the form of look at us now. They actually pay for two-thirds of our health insurance this is scary gosh.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I mean, I'm all going out with I mean kish.

Speaker 1:

yeah, like I hope everybody listening, I know there's something there that you would identify with and it's very much higher hardwired into my psyche and it's something that I'm processing through and working through, so I. I love that you are have just put it out there in your book to like let's just call it what it is and let's own it and let's move through it and you've got this beautiful, like rethink method that I want you to walk us through because, it's how leaders can really practically apply.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, just to become more productive, because there's still the things, there's still the stuff we got to do. But how can we do this and also lead healthier, more fulfilling lives? You know that we're not just chasing the pretzels and the stars.

Speaker 3:

So for me, when I think about the rethink method, this is something I want folks to know, that I actually just tried out on myself. So one of the things to know that every single thing that you read in my book is something that I actually have done myself. I've done it. I'm not perfect at it, I'm still working through it. I don't get it right perfect at it, I'm still working through it. I don't get it right Even right now. I landed this morning at 1030 and I'm sitting on the plane responding to phone calls about my doctor's appointments that I had to squeeze all into one day because I've been on the road for three weeks and I'm only going to be home for a week and everything has to get done Right. So I'm even trying to like squeeze in myself. So I am not immune. And so I had to literally reset myself and I was going to to the to have another, get another appointment. Y'all, Okay, Y'all just heard me before we got on and I was like ma out.

Speaker 3:

Okay, y'all just heard me before we got on and I was like ma, cancel the appointment, I'm going to bed, okay, because the R in rethink is to rest, like.

Speaker 3:

So you got to pause before you act, like you got to hold on, you got to take an assessment and you can't assess anything. Notice what my hand posture did y'all, for those of y'all who are listening, I need y'all to run on over to the clips. So, basically, you've got to take a minute, right, take a beat, and many of us see stopping as failure, or our bodies tell us to sit the hell down, hmm. And then you've got to take a healthy assessment before you act. And when I say an assessment, I mean I want you to take inventory of the things that bring you joy, of the things that make your face wrinkle, of the things that make you just want to just throw a shoe, but not in a good way, and do that in a personal inventory and not from the perspective of then beating yourself up. So, folks, if folks have ever seen me speak and I think I've told y'all this before I have an alter ego I actually have four, but it's fine.

Speaker 2:

Another, another, another. We've seen you're speaking uh, alter ego, it's a force of nature. I manage life. We've seen your speaking. Alter ego, it's a force of nature.

Speaker 3:

Tina is the one who has been protecting me since I was a kid. Okay, life was life when I was a kid. There's definitely some downsides to being a Lasky kid and for her I have to talk to this broad on a regular basis and tell her shut the hell up. And so that inner voice, even in taking an assessment, that's going to say to you but you know, you got this many things to do, but you know you can't do it till Saturday. But you know, if you do it now, you know these people are going to be disappointed. But you're going to shut up. You got to literally do that and then decide what gets to stay and what has got to go. And that for somebody like me who is a high achiever, a people pleaser, total type A, when I don't feel safe, my control freak, what On a thousand. So anybody who has any of the stuff I got, don't add being empathetic and being an empath to that. Lord, baby Jesus, you not getting no sleep tonight, okay.

Speaker 3:

You're going to tell somebody no and lose sleep for three weeks. You look like you done been through the tundra, okay. So you've got to be able to say to yourself I have the responsibility as a leader, first of myself, then to my family, then to my roles at work, to model what it means to take care of myself. And you can't figure out what you need to do in this season of your life if you don't take an assessment. So before you even bring that, you can bring this into your organization and do this exact same thing. Right? Because many of us are like ah, you know, we have great volunteers, what are our assets, I mean our program's good? We're not even sure how to take a positive, not an audit, but an assessment of what we are working with, what are the tools that we're working with? And so doing that to me is a thing, and I just think it's around working smarter harder. Go ahead, john.

Speaker 1:

Can I call out that I just heard you say also like what you need for this season, Like I think that's so good because I think also we can sometimes type ourselves and not actually catch up to where are we at today, like what are our needs today? Not what you said they were five years ago.

Speaker 3:

That's right.

Speaker 1:

But like what are they now in this season for whatever challenge or whatever happened this week, you know, like I think it's just really critical.

Speaker 3:

Like you know, you've talked about this. You're in the season now that you are letting go. Right, you are allowing yourself to be creative across all areas of your life a creative across all areas of your life, and it is reflected in your family life, it's reflected in that inner light and you always have a light. Now the thing is like a a back, it's like the Batman light, it's a Gotham light now, and it's going to be reflected in the business, right, and so you're already a creative. You're nasty with the mouse. Okay, there's not a color, there's not a design, it's not that you just have it in your brain, but look how much more you're able to do with less effort when you allow yourself to take that same level of gifting and give it to yourself in your personal life.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 3:

And the risk reward.

Speaker 2:

John, come on. Yeah, and the risk for war, john, come on. And the freedom and the agency to know, friends, that you can do this for yourselves, correct, that you don't have to feel guilty about applying your oxygen mask first, even though we have been taught and our systems are set up so that we do feel guilty. We might even feel shame for doing that. But what? You're just so spot on with this that I think that this is not just existing, this is living and living well and and and I really think you are totally onto this and so, yeah, we don't. We didn't want to interrupt you too much, but the assessment piece was so good, we had to talk about that piece, so good.

Speaker 3:

So think about it, but like and then bringing folks in. So this is the inclusive approach to setting and achieving your goals. And you'll hear me go between personal and organizational, because I think that they work together. And so if you're closed off, you know party of one doing your own thing on your individual stuff, how can you give yourself the space for folks to be able to support you? And Brene Brown says something and I've heard other people quote it that says in order to be able to build trust, you have to allow yourself to be vulnerable. But many of us are not vulnerable with ourselves. We are faking the funk with ourselves and using busyness as a band-aid to not deal with our stuff.

Speaker 1:

Hard pause. That's so good. Let's go to a commercial break.

Speaker 3:

This is so good. You know somebody's going to hit the pause button.

Speaker 1:

Yes, what else I got in my queue?

Speaker 2:

This stuff matters, though, because I think to your point. You talked about Sinai. I am looking at my achiever self right now, going girl. This is not healthy for your daughters to see. This is not healthy to be on all the time. This is not healthy to model, grind. This is not. I mean it, just like I am in that space of saying this has got to stop, and so I do think I know that there are others that are out there resonating. So keep going, my friend.

Speaker 3:

And it goes. It cuts across our generations, right. So when I was writing this book, I wrote it from a Gen X first gen solo mama thought process, right. But I tried to put myself in the seat of my clients and of my girlfriends and of my guy friends. And every chapter has a vignette, a short story about the real experience of a person you know. Names and dates were changed to protect them.

Speaker 3:

That give you the oh. Shoot she talking to me, but not the shameful side of that, the oh, and I got this one step I can take. Let me do that, so I that, so I think you know, for me that's the I right, an inclusive approach. And then I think we're thinking about navigating shifts in cultures and values. So I want the both of y'all to think about what you really cared about, john for you in the sixth grade, becky for you in the grade. And I do that because our maturity levels, as the scientists said to scientists, there you go. Okay, I want you to think about what you would have gotten to a schoolyard fight over what is something that you really really care deeply about. Try to roll it back 14 and 11.

Speaker 1:

I mean, I think this is a term that I knew. I didn't know the definition of this then, but it definitely is like inclusion, like feeling part of the group or not. Like that was top of mind, and usually feeling left out of said group, you know. So that's where I would go.

Speaker 2:

My highest core value has always been fairness. So when you know, care and love, and so if anybody were fighting about that, I mean when you're in eighth grade, friends basketball you know, for me, that's a value.

Speaker 3:

I want people to know that is a value, right? Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2:

Anything you pick on my people, I'm ready to go, I'm coming out.

Speaker 3:

I, I'm coming out, I'm coming out. John, yours showed up as inclusion. Becky, yours shows up as community right, and that fairness and that community go into that. Many of us forget over the course of our lives that we, when we were 11 and 14, had already understood what we stood for, understood what we stood for, and if we had been able to nurture that, then I believe we'd be able to bring that into our organizations. And so what I'm inviting folks to be able to do is to have an approach to thinking about your values personal values, and then your organizational values and then being able to name and have the conversations and get yourself back to center. The busyness has gotten us off center. We need to be rebalanced. We need our proverbial values. Chiropractic visit Hello.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I mean, I am a bobblehead over here. I feel the possibility of what you're saying and I have to say, as someone who I think has been on turbo since I was about two but I'm late diagnosed ADHD, so it's probably there before two that I didn't know about it. But it is the gift of pause y'all. We literally just came off of Impact Up, where Kish came and talked about this and a one good thing, and I want you to know that there are ways that we can break the system, that you can feel peace again, you can feel balance again.

Speaker 2:

I think this framework is so smart and literally it's called RETHINK and it is literally helping us. That acronym is helping us rethink how we can bring the best of what we want to see in ourselves at home and the best of what we want to see of ourselves at work and freaking. Pull them together. Did you know that was possible, friends? Because I got to tell you five years ago I don't think Becky thought that that was even possible, but I love that you have this framework. So let's talk about the wellness piece of this, because wellness is so foundational in your work. We see it in everything that you do. It comes along with the work of leadership, with culture, with caring for people. So you built wellness into this book. Of course you did, because that's part of your brand. But what does this five-star wellness plan look like that you mentioned in the book and translate it for us, for how leaders can design their own plan so they can have the sustainable long-term success that we want them to have.

Speaker 3:

So there are five aspects to wellness and well-being that I pulled from, and so I'm a CliftonStrengths coach. Gallup has an engagement survey that they did and it's like a report out now around. What do folks need to be successful and thrive and feel engaged at work? And there are five things right. So your physical well-being, mental well-being. I did the, my rephrasing of it. Basically it was your physical, your emotional. There's one I forgot your community and, I think, your financial, I think. But either way, I pulled back from it and said, okay, how do you make this thing actually rock out in real life? How can I test this?

Speaker 3:

So the area that I struggle with the most, when I am stressed, when my back is against the wall, when I feel like I have everything on my own, is my financial wellbeing. My self-soothing mechanism has been since I was, since I could work, was been to shop. Now, on the upside, I'm real good at this. Okay, so I was like you know, I'm gonna put myself on task rabbit for the holiday season to get my shopping fixed in so I can shop. For other people who hate it, I really do love that. But on the on the dark side, in the late midnight hour, when I'm anxious and I can't sleep, when I'm thinking about payroll, why am I also thinking about Gucci?

Speaker 3:

So, for me, when you think about the five aspects your physical well-being and wellness, your dwelling that's your actual house and your vessels what are you doing to ensure that you are well? And if we pull ourselves away from the blogging and the blogosphere and the internets and all the good stuff we can say, when I feel well, it looks like this, and then pulling back again and going okay, so my emotional wellbeing, there is no one who does coaching with me that I'm not like. So about your therapist? Because I am none of therapists, even though I see a PhD in org psych in my future, but for now Dr Palmer does not exist yet. Okay, so how do I get you to think about that emotional wellbeing, how you are taking care of yourself, and then your spiritual wellbeing?

Speaker 3:

Now, everybody's not a believer of something, but I don't care if it's the bees leaves or the trees, if it's Jesus or Hare Krishna, like there is a center that you pull from, and how are you feeding and caring for that relationship? And then there's your financials we talked about. There's this idea that because we work in the social sector, that we're supposed to be poor. Uh no, false, so, false False. So let me put my pennies into my four or three B. Okay, so are you looking at your money every day? We ask folks for money for your fundraiser, but are you treating your money like a side chick? Are you talking to her every day? Are you making sure she's good, or are you just calling up when you need something Right? And then community, which is the one I think is the one we neglect the most, and that is your social network, your business network. And that is your social network, your business network, your home community network, whether that is church or sorority or rotary or whatever that thing. And then your actual family. Everybody don't have a family they actually want to be in the community with, let's be clear. So whether it's your blood family or your chosen family. And so then, those are the five.

Speaker 3:

Now I want you to pause, because that should be overwhelming. And then I want you to go at this season in my life, what needs to work, what needs the care and feeding? If it's all five, you're going to have to pick a struggle or two. You can't do all five. Let me just be very clear. Something I have to limp behind for a little bit, yeah, and really thinking about what, for me, looks like being well cared for and being well fed. And then where are the areas that I need to lean into to be able to do so, and that might change in a year. If you're taking care of an ill parent, you might be leaning heavy into your community and your financial well-being may be taking a hit because you got to take off work and you got to pay for bills and da-da-da Truth. But if you go into it eyes open and clear because you chose it, then the level of power and agency that you will feel is a whole different ballgame.

Speaker 3:

So I want leaders to think about the responsibility you have to yourself, the responsibility Do not let yourself down, and this is something I tell myself every day. So I have these cards I'm gonna show y'all. Listen, ben, I'm the person who gets targeted on Instagram. And so I pull a card every day and I'm in my office and today's card says choose you every time. I'm the person who gets targeted on Instagram, and so I pull a card every day and I'm in my office and today's card says choose you every time. That was today's card Right before I got on with y'all because I hadn't sat at my desk in almost three weeks. Okay, so I want us to, just if you think about anything else in my book, read a chapter and you'd be good to go. Choose you. You have to go. Choose you. You have a responsibility to choose you.

Speaker 1:

That's all I got. And, like the agency, the empowerment piece here is like cutting through to me, you know, because I think some of our busyness just feels like we're just stuck in this spin cycle of doing, and I just love your call out of like we are, we can make these conscious decisions to focus in some of these areas that are going to lead us to more healing, more wellness, et cetera. So I'm curious, Kish, as we start to like wind down, like a lot of leaders listen to this podcast that are shepherding teams how do you create environments, how do you cultivate environments where everybody can thrive in this way? You know what are some components of creating spaces where we can flourish as leaders, but we're also paving the way.

Speaker 1:

I think modeling is so huge and that struck me at impact at pause last week. I'm like, oh my gosh, my kids don't see me rest. You know, like what life am I creating? Like I'm perpetuating what we're talking about, you know Exactly. So I'm processing this as a leader, like to like how do we create these environments where we have flourishing people, humans that are pouring into this?

Speaker 3:

So I'm going to start from top down. If you are an ED CEO, you need better get in the room with your team your executive team if your organization is massive, or your whole organization if it's smaller and ask them what the heck is going on in their life right now and tell them what's going on with yours. If you follow me long enough, you'll know I say I believe very deeply in order to have a deeply engaged team, you have to have a personal relationship with your team members, not a private one. So I know who's in daycare, who got sick, whose mama's in the hospital, who needs to go do this, whose brother's having it this or that. I know all of that. I don't need to know the minute details, but it allows me to move with a level of empathy in real time and design around it period. And so get in there with your team and tell them what the heck is going on with you.

Speaker 3:

You are human. I need you to get off of the automaton of your leadership iron throne and get into this soft cushy. I am a human and I want to invite y'all into that. And if you're not ready to do that cause that sounds scary as all get out, do it with a peer. First, call a peer on the phone and say I got to talk to you about what's going on with me and I hope I'm trusting you with this information. But in order for me to be able to talk to my team about it, I need to get this out right.

Speaker 3:

So, being able to do that, and then I want you to to to challenge your team to say what would need to be true for us to have the kind of workplace that you feel excited to come to, virtually hybrid or totally in person, describe it for me. Take them through an exercise where they write down what it sounds like, what it looks like, what it smells like. Is there popcorn Is talk to me right? So that's if you're at the topmost level. If you're a mid-level manager where all the work happens, then you have the responsibility of carrying a microculture, which is hard.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 3:

So for you, I need your physical and your mental health to be on point. So the best thing you could do at that point is get your body moving and sweating and get your butt talking to somebody who is not at work, because actually you are carrying the brunt of the implementation of your organization and you have a lot of responsibility and accountability without the control, and you are the person that's going to set up the associates, the assistants, the interns, the volunteers to be able to want to move up in management. Because if you look at any of the statistics around leadership right now, our young people do not want to be managers. They say, cut me my check and let me go home. Yep.

Speaker 1:

Can you blame them? Why would you want to be?

Speaker 3:

messy. If I'm at the office 90 hours a week looking crazy, hello, no, yeah. And then, last but not least, if you are at the beginning stages right, you are the foundation of the organization, you are the you have directed work right. Then you have definitely got to make sure that you are clear about what this particular part of your life, career-wise, is leading up to, and for Not 30 years down the road, my friends, strategic pan like 24 months and I think that tic-tac-toe starts to change the tenor of the behavior, cultural set of behaviors in your organization, because it can go top down and it can go bottom up. If I had more time I would go more into it, but that's my tippity top of the trees suggestion for that.

Speaker 2:

That is such a good hack If you're looking for the playbook or the framework that right there was a masterclass in how to build cultures where everybody matters. You know, I got to go back to, like, core value number one. Everybody has to matter for this to work, and I just think that reimagining it in a way that everyone has power in this, I think is also and the power starts within you, friend Like I hope this is awakening something for a lot of listeners right now, because I can tell you it sure is heck opening up a lot for me personally, because when you look at any of us, like Kishu and I, we're the same age. I won't say that number because I protect that from other ladies, even though I'm very open about it with myself.

Speaker 2:

But those of us born in the late 70s. But we've been in this work a long time. We've been in these systems of habits for a very long time. We don't even think about them. I don't even think about how often I go to my phone and check my email and check my text and my DMs. My hand just goes there.

Speaker 2:

These are the sorts of things that we have got to unwind because we do want people moving up in our organization, we do want to have psychological safety, we do want to live whole lives at the office and at home. I believe this can be possible for us. I also think so much can be unlocked in our sector and in our people. If we can rest, well, that's right. If we can stop being so busy, if we can turn it down just a little bit and not feel the guilt or the shame about turning it down, that's right. So I am just loving this conversation.

Speaker 2:

I cannot wait for this book to come out. I really think it's going to be so much of a Bible for me and for so many in the sector, and we're going to get to that. Friends, don't worry, we've got a way for you to get the book. It's coming out in December. I'm teasing it already and we want to get that into your hands. But we got to get back to story Kish, because you are one of the great storytellers and the way you tell story, the way you've got rhythm and your personality that comes through.

Speaker 2:

We all just want to hear some Kish stories, and you have probably been on the podcast more than any other guests that we have had in the we Are For Good ecosystem, and so we've heard a lot of stories of philanthropy from you, but is there one that's really resonating today, whether it's because of the topic that we're covering or because some way that someone's kindness or generosity just stayed with you in your life? We'd love to hear it.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, oh, that's an easy one. So one of my mentors, you doing so? One of my mentors she, a couple of years ago I was just. I interviewed her for my podcast and I was talking to her offline and just like, oh, you know, I think I'm going to really dig deeper into wellness. And I saw this wellness certification. It was like $8,000. It was a lot of money at the time. For me, it still is Okay, $8,000 is a hello. Like $8,000. It was a lot of money at the time. For me, it still is Okay, $8,000 is a hello.

Speaker 3:

And she was like how much do you think? And I was like, oh, I'm flipping. Oh, it's $8,000. You know, I'm gonna save up. Maybe next year I'll be able to do it. And she was like uh, check your phone. And I did one of these numbers. And she said any investment I make in use, an investment that I'm gonna see a hundred for, because I know that you are going to change people, it's easy for me to do it. And I just was like you know, when you get like the instant tip, you're going to make me cry off my lashes. And I went on and took me some time. I had to actually go through the course twice because busy right. Also scared what happens when I finish. I'm going to have to do something with this work.

Speaker 1:

I'm raising my cold brew over here. I mean, this is generosity in practice. This is what it all matters. Like it's investing in people, it's seeing the best in people.

Speaker 3:

Like gosh, and I've done it. I've coached people for free, as long as you do the work, okay, cause I'm really sick of doing stuff for free. You gonna turn around and not do it, I'll fight you. I've done scholarships for folks. I've said, oh, how much is this? And first of all, because I have a only child, I'm the community mom. So the number of books I have purchased, even though I'm paying tuition, and the number of oh, ms Kiss, you think you could just send me $50 so I could get Uber and Uber Eats for the week you better eat this cafeteria pizza also. You know, like I just feel like generosity doesn't have to be this big showy thing, but if you are not paying attention, then giving is not joyful. If you are not paying attention, then giving is not joyful. And what I took from that?

Speaker 1:

from her to me was that she was paying attention to me and that was my pretzel and my gold star. I mean, what a gift just listening and having somebody that is present enough to hear what you're actually saying. You're actually saying what your actual needs are. Like how, how beautiful is that, my friend? Um, okay, you're no stranger around here. You know we're going to have to ask you for a one good thing before you get out the door. So lots of things today, um, have been stirred up in this conversation. What's lifting for you that you'd want to share as a one good thing to leave our community with today?

Speaker 3:

For folks who are thinking about mastering work-life synergy, I want to invite you into work-life integration. I love that word so good.

Speaker 2:

You know me and balance. You know I'm a.

Speaker 3:

Gemini, you know my tweet. I already told y'all about Tina. She's not really here for balance. She wants to be included at all times, and so part of being present with yourself is being able to understand where you are and what is necessary for what you need to do for yourself, for yourself, for your family and at work. And that synergy cannot happen and the P I'm using is present, but really is power If you're not plugged in. Then lights out. Preach. That's my one good thing, good.

Speaker 2:

So good. I mean, if any of this is resonating with you, if you have felt yourself nodding, we want you to connect with Kish. We want you to get this book in your hands. Do you know a leader who needs to hear about this? This is a love letter that we can literally give each other about slowing down in this work. So, kish, tell people where they can get the book about slowing down in this work. So, kish, tell people where they can get the book. Tell them where they need to go If they want to hire you for coaching or for any sort of anything within the management sphere, give us all the details so you can get the book on, I guess, amazon and bookstorecom you can go to.

Speaker 3:

If you go to kashanapalmercom forward slash book and buy through one of those links, then you get a little something extra for me.

Speaker 2:

We'll drop that back in the show notes. Okay, we'll grab it.

Speaker 3:

Yep, and you know what A little rip drop is. Gucci, how about I call?

Speaker 2:

it. Gucci tissue paper that I have.

Speaker 3:

It's sticking in every book with love, and if you are interested in learning how to lead from a place of fullness, from a place of chill, from a place of culture that makes you feel like you are designed in this moment for this work, that I encourage you to visit Management, where we put a fresh take on management and leadership, for our holistic coaching, trainings, retreats, step backs and opportunities to be able to lean in to your purpose, which are your values in action in this season of your life, for you as a leader and for your organization.

Speaker 1:

More of this Kish yes cue the applause. Like any time, my friend, let's keep adding to this multiple repeat guest the kind of thing we got going on. I mean the way you show up with care, with wisdom, with the levity, to get us through these harder conversations, like I'm just so dang grateful to know you in this life, my friend.

Speaker 2:

Thank you, love you too, and the book drops uh, december 12th. So, great, it is a great, oh, John here we go the designer loves the 12th 12th, so definitely a great gift for anybody for the holidays and for the new year.

Speaker 3:

If you're feeling.

Speaker 2:

If you're feeling this, awakening that 2025 is your year to get healthy, to get balanced, this is going to be your guidebook. Kish is going to be one of your leaders and, ps, if you got one of those families that you don't want to hang around, no, you can hang out here. We want you, in our space, find your people, find a community where you feel safe, where you can be yourself. We want you to slow down, we want you to get healthy, we want you to get in alignment, because we know, once you are, you're going to do more good for this world and for yourself. So thank you, kish Adore.