We Are For Good Podcast - The Podcast for Nonprofits
Nonprofit professionals are faced with more challenges to accomplish their missions and the growing pressure to do more, raise more, and be more for the causes we hold so dear. Join Jon McCoy, CFRE and Becky Endicott, CFRE as they learn with you from some of the best in the industry; sharing the most innovative ideas, inspiration and stories of making a difference. You’re in good company and we welcome you to our community of nonprofit professionals, philanthropists, world changers, innovators, and others to bring a little more goodness into the world. Get cozy, grab a coffee, and get ready to be inspired. We Are For Good. You in?
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We Are For Good is an online media and education platform with an aim to revolutionize the nonprofit industry by equipping this generation of for-good leaders with the mindsets, tools and innovative ideas to make a bigger impact than any of us could ever dream to accomplish on our own. Our vision is to create an Impact Uprising. Learn more at www.weareforgood.com
We Are For Good Podcast - The Podcast for Nonprofits
547. Overcoming Toxicity from the Inside Out: Building Resilience + Driving Change - Dr. Kevin Sansberry II
Meet Dr. Kevin. He’s a seasoned behavioral scientist, executive coach, and host of the Toxic Leadership Podcast🎧 He’s bringing his expertise in eradicating toxic behaviors and promoting employee well-being through evidence-based, inclusive, and equitable approaches. Plus, he’s sharing strategies to transform cultures, build resilience, and activate change. Tune in to learn about the role of humanity, kindness, listening, and reflection in building healthy workplace cultures 🤝🌱
💡 Learn
- How Toxic Workplace Cultures Manifest
- The Retention Crisis in the Nonprofit Sector
- How individuals and teams can activate to build resilience
Today’s Guest
Dr. Kevin Sansberry II, Behavioral Scientist, Executive Coach + Host, Toxic Leadership Podcast
For more information + episode details visit: weareforgood.com/episode/547.
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Hey, I'm John.
Speaker 2:And I'm Becky. And this is the we Are For Good podcast. Nonprofits are faced with more challenges to accomplish their missions and the growing pressure to do more, raise more and be more for the causes that improve our world.
Speaker 1:We're here to learn with you from some of the best in the industry, bringing the most innovative ideas, inspirational stories, all to create an impact uprising.
Speaker 2:So welcome to the good community. We're nonprofit professionals, philanthropists, world changers and rabid fans who are striving to bring a little more goodness into the world. So let's get started.
Speaker 3:Becky, did I not tell you you're going to have FOMO when we first met I?
Speaker 2:am so obsessed with our guest, I just want to adopt him and invite him to Thanksgiving dinner. Like it was amazing. Oh my gosh.
Speaker 3:Y'all, we're in for such a rich conversation Like it is such an honor to have Dr Kevin Sandsbury with us. He is this behavioral scientist, he's an executive coach, he's a podcast host. Casual, he's a speaker. But listen y'all, he is almost like our therapist in the first like 10 minutes, just getting to hang out before this conversation, because there's a lot of conversations we've wanted to have about this sector, but we wanted to do it in a way that sees people, that recognizes the different journeys that we're on, the different internal journeys that we're on and how that all informs how we show up in our workplaces. And so to find somebody like Kevin that can come in and really walk us through something that's such a difficult topic that we're trying to wrestle through, but do it with such humanity Like y'all, I am so buckled in for this.
Speaker 3:We were talking about retention. We're talking about navigating toxic workplaces, things that you know don't necessarily get the light of day, even though we're really trying to drive this conversation this year specifically around retention. It's an inside job. We really believe it starts from within and how we show up. But let me tell you a little bit about Kevin, because this conversation is going to be too good, so okay. His work is really driven by the need for evidence-based, inclusive and equitable approaches to urgently and proactively transform and coach leaders, eradicating toxic behaviors threatening profitability, innovation and the overall wellbeing. He is just this an impactful coach. He has served in all sorts of different settings, such as professional sports.
Speaker 3:I can't even hang with you my friend sales and other big, complex organizations and he's currently working on a lot of ventures to further connect the research and best practices to help organizations detoxify and help employees thrive. Y'all this is so much core to what we want to do that it was Kevin was one of our first phone of friends when we were putting together Impact Up. That's happening July 11th. We're talking about power. We want to really take the veil off the power dynamics that are holding our sector back, that are holding a lot of people in our communities back and really having some of these frank conversations. Kevin is coming with us to Impact Up on July 11th. He is also a podcast host. I got to plug your podcast before we say hello, my friend. The Toxic Leadership Podcast is always on the top of the charts too, but he has these conversations where he goes there. But he also gives such actionable advice, kevin, huge honor to have you with us, my friend. Welcome to the we Are For Good podcast.
Speaker 4:Hello, hello, I'm so excited to have this conversation, hey, and yeah, no, I'm excited. Like I was telling you before, I had a late flight and woke up at eight o'clock for a meeting, so I'm amped up, even with like four hours of sleep, because this is how I roll, because I am, for good, so happy to be here. Oh my gosh.
Speaker 3:Can we just play?
Speaker 2:that clip forever in our lives.
Speaker 3:Well, kevin, I mean there's a lot of meaty topics we want to hop into with you, but we love to just get the context of your story. Would you take us back? I mean, tell us a little bit about your formative experiences growing up and what got you into this work.
Speaker 4:Yeah, so I'll start. I mean this is weird, but I'm going to start when I was born because I don't remember it. But I'll just tell you my story. I was born early, premature, and I was born at 24 weeks of gestation period, yeah, and so, with that being said, I was like the size of like I fit in the palm of your hand. The notion that runs around my family was like you were big, as like a can of Coke, like that's how long you were as a kid, and so I was in the NICU and all that kind of stuff and my skin was transparent, all that kind of stuff. They had to manually breathe for me with this thing. But anyway, I say that to say I was meant to be here because that is a survivor. Rates, especially in the 80s and even now, are super low. But I was meant to be here.
Speaker 4:Oldest of six from Kansas City, missouri, originally, kind of growing up I was surrounded by a lot of great people in my family, a lot of great women in my family who instilled in me the importance of like relationships and the importance of family in itself. I wasn't receptive to it early on. I didn't get it. You know, I I was growing myself and learning the world myself. But as I look back now with more wisdom, I realized that a lot of the things that I grew up in were centered on how to build relationships, how to strengthen bonds, even during times where the external world is not necessarily positive. Even during times where, like, the external world is not necessarily positive. So meaning like, even during like I grew up in, like, lower, lower income, right.
Speaker 4:So even during times where you know money's not current, we don't know what's going on, and stuff like that, having to move a lot, I always felt the love, I always felt the family, I always felt the bond and so, yeah, a lot of things I've learned as a, as a, as an adult adult with kids of my own. Now that I'm like, wow, I'm glad I had that, or wow, we weathered that and I'm sitting there not knowing what I'm doing. So I grew up in a standpoint of relationships, love and trust and stuff like that, and so that informs now how I approach work. My main goal as we talk about workplaces is I want to ensure that, you know, humanity is centered in how we operate, and one of the things that I'm not good at is I'm blunt, I'm not a sugarcoater. I like I'm gonna tell you that's one thing I didn't learn.
Speaker 2:I didn't okay, I'm a straight shooter.
Speaker 4:I didn't learn. I'm not a sugarcoat. So, like, I come into systems and I will say some stuff to whomever, and I'm going to agitate and I'm going to irritate if you take it that way, you know, and so. But my main goal is, I am not a gaslighter and I do not put my head in the sand, and so I am here for the experience. I'm going to call things out. I'm open, my antennas are up, you know. I'm open to learn new things myself.
Speaker 4:But when I come into systems, my main goal is to drive change in a way that everyone can see the future and see that vision that we want. And so, whether we're talking about attention, whether we're talking about, you know, especially nonprofits and power, you know that needs to be called out and I'm glad we're talking about that at the event. We're talking about that at the event. But there are a lot of things, a lot of those elephants in the room, where I'm like, well, y'all, we don't need to be talking about elephants in the room, we need to just call it out. That's reality. So, like, let's call it out, because it's not elephants for some people.
Speaker 2:Okay, I'm fist pumping in the background. I want everyone to just fist pump with me because I think what you're saying is like really a clarion call, to like we need it's time to wake up and it's time to move forward, and I feel like there is such a beautiful metaphor in your life of survival and being a warrior and really being a champion for this work, and I'm so glad to just know your background and your lived experience and I'm and honestly, we worked in a hospital foundation for 10 years and John had four babies in the NICU. I was the NICU major gift officer and we know what it means to have a baby at 24 weeks.
Speaker 2:And it is so great to see you here in front of us, great to see you here in front of us smiling, thriving, happy and pouring back into the work, but I really thank you for centering this conversation in the spirit of just saying it as it is, and to me, we are standing in a time in our sector where we need your strength, we need your honesty, we need your courage, friends, and so I want to get into this toxic workplace cultures concept, and I have to tell you, Kevin, this is a really personal topic for us.
Speaker 2:We put out a mental health survey in our community last October and the number two most prevalent thing that is keeping our sector in sickness through what we saw in our survey was toxic work environments. So many of our respondents shared these experiences of being in these environments where they were governed by poor management, lack of support, and it had a significant impact on their wellbeing. It led them to leave their jobs and people are seeking out more supportive work environments and you talked about. Humanity is centered, needs to be centered in how we operate, and so I want to dive into this, because our number two trend of 2024 this year was retention is an inside game.
Speaker 2:And that really starts with having this frank conversation. So let's get into it. How do toxic workplace cultures manifest in nonprofit orgs and talk to us about those consequences, not only for staff morale, but also productivity.
Speaker 4:Yes. So first off, let me set the stage before I dive in. I'm going to set the stage and preface with a few caveats here. Okay, definition so when we talk about toxic workplaces, toxic leadership, all those kinds of things, I'm not necessarily pointing or labeling a person. We're labeling behaviors and do know that these behaviors that I'm going to be talking about occur on a spectrum and so it's not necessarily you can just say this person is all toxic. There may be some behaviors that elicit, you know, destructive things, that elicit burnout, that elicit, you know there might be some things there, but so it's not labeling people as such, because everybody has the propensity to change. Systems have the propensity to change, and so I want to label that. My second label is I also want to know and note that something like micromanagement to one employee may look different to another employee, maybe feel different to another employee. So when I say this it might sound like generalizations, but do know that I know it's not generalizable between people. No-transcript, you know it's prevalent. It sounds like why?
Speaker 4:Well, one of the things that has harmed nonprofits in my experience is a lot of nonprofits have tried to emulate a corporate work environment and, for the good and the bad Out of all industries, who I would have thought would have centered the human experience, would have did work differently. It would have been the nonprofit industry. I'm just being honest. If I would have thought what industry would be? The one that's like oh, let's do four-day work weeks first? Oh, let's do. I would have thought nonprofits would have did that in the 90s.
Speaker 4:But what happened was a lot of nonprofits try to emulate the corporations and the individuals who give them the money. They fall into the same types of culture, and so what you get are nonprofits who try to play this thing where they they're different and they bait and switch your employees. They basically essentially say or espouse you know, we want people who, who have a passion for the work, we want people who are invested in our outcomes and are centering the needs of our communities that we serve and that are not right. But yet you have them and that's their differentiator. That's the differentiator between a corporation. But yet you treat them just like the corporation treats them and you're giving the same types of burnout. People aren't being heard and people aren't feeling valued. Burnout is the prevalent right and you pay them less than corporate.
Speaker 4:If I'm looking at this objectively why don't I just go get a corporate job? Then I'm gonna get paid more. Like I'm gonna get paid more for the same types of stress, that hard on my sleeve stuff. I'm sorry I can just go volunteer, you know, like I don't need the nonprofit to fill that cup right, and so I can find my fulfillment in corporate, get more pay for the it's like hazard pay. Now I can get more pay and I can go volunteer and fill my cup. And so my ask and wondering is the nonprofit value proposition of serving the cause, whatever the cause is.
Speaker 4:I think we're not hitting that mark because of all of the bureaucracy, the lack of formalized listening. We don't have systems that actually listen. We do the thing of DEI. We do DEI outside our company, but inside the company we don't do any of that. So it's like on stage we'll say the thing, but we didn't even clean up our side of the street. And it's amazing. That's like such an amazing dichotomy. You're on stage and you say all this great stuff and all the great work you're doing, but yet when you go back to your side of the street, you go back to your house. You didn't even clean your own house. And that's fascinating that we can sit with that. That's fascinating that that can be like no, okay, that's normal, that's a norm, but that doesn't make it right, and so, yeah, that's the kind of stuff I like to call out.
Speaker 3:My head goes here that I think this connects to so many conversations we've had. This is why values are so important and because we are. If we're not actually modeling those, like what does it matter? Like I mean, if we're really subscribed to these bigger questions that we're solving for these issues and we're not attacking the root and even just how we show up as people and how we connect and how we lead and how we all the things that happen inside a workplace. So I'm just curious, like I mean, what's your, what's your thoughts on that? I mean, as we think about, like some of the underlying factors. But I mean, get in there on values, let's dig it.
Speaker 4:Values. Values have been butchered for 20 years. Here's how Every company has values. Most companies have values. Let me say it like that Most companies have values, corporate values and all that kind of stuff, but they're on the website, on the wall, and we don't have any mechanism to measure up to the values. How do I know you're innovative? How do I know whatever your values are Respectful, trustful how do we know that? How do we know that? And so, first off, we don't go back and say, hey, as a leader, am I doing this value? And how Put that in your performance appraisal? Live up to your values A, b.
Speaker 4:You create values and we have value statements, but you failed, as an organization system, to create what's called behavioral specificity. Behavioral specificity is you'll have something like a value of innovation and you'll probably have some bullet points under that, under the statement pretty statement. What does that mean? What does that look like here? Then, by department, I'm a department leader now In my department I'm also going to have behavioral specificity In philanthropy. Here's what innovation looks like for us, because humans operate under behavioral specificity. Otherwise, you're going to have everybody operating under their own definition of the value, definition of the value, and then what happens is you have somebody say something like oh well, respect is you have to do everything. I say that's respect as the leader, and I'm the toxic leader and I yell at work and I'm screaming at people, but you have to respect me. That's how I look at respect. But until we come to a frame of behavioral specificity, yeah, that's what's going to happen.
Speaker 4:And then you say you're an inclusive workplace. I'm sure you have people who come from different backgrounds. I'm sure you have people who come from different, you know, speak different languages and stuff like that as their first language, but yet, without behavioral specificity, we have defaulted to the American centric way of that thing, whatever it might be, and that's not cool either. And so when I talk about we're saying these things like inclusion, we're saying we have these values and stuff like that and we did nothing to actually instill them into the culture, into our ways of working, you really just engage in something I call cultural theater, and that is the, the act of showing you that we, you know, we're doing organizational cultural theater. That is cultural theater.
Speaker 4:And so I don't. I'm not a. I'm not a fan of cultural theater. I talked about it in my Ted talk, um, but no, I don't. I don't engage in that. I engage in the real. And so until you have these things in place, where you can like have uh accountability to upholding these values, they're just words. Until you can have behavioral specificity where we can ensure that we're all marching under the same understanding of these values. It's just words. You have to. We also have leadership accountability to upholding those values, because leaders are under the spotlight and they model and they foster and uphold the entire culture. They're just words. So you have to have these all formalized if we're truly saying these values are actually in place.
Speaker 2:I'm so glad we're calling this out because we're going to have to embark on these systems of change and it's going to start with us. And so I want to switch just a little bit to power dynamics, because it's real and I think there are a lot of people we hear in our community, kevin, who are like I want to be this change, but I am fighting against the man or the machine up above, and I want you to talk about how power dynamics within nonprofits really sort of exacerbate or even mitigate toxic behavior among leaders. Can you dive into that?
Speaker 4:I can so many many people. When we talk about the concept of power in the first place, power in itself is an attractive thing, especially in a power-based society that it sits in. What happens is you might have a leader who is talking and speaking out as necessary, but then they get into a position of power and then they stop talking. It's weird. And then they stop talking. It's weird they have the power, but they seem less powerful now because they're not actually using it. They're not saying anything. What they're doing is upholding the current system and saying, oh no, we can't do it that way, and here's why, unfortunately, a lot of the behaviors that get upheld are the toxic ones, what we saw in the COVID return to work kind of stuff. I've seen so many nonprofits do some pretty crappy things as it relates to how they did the COVID transition, return to work, and I'm like well, don't lie and say you know our value is, you know, collaboration and we 100% need to collaborate in the. We collaborate better in the office because y'all don't. You got data that proves that you don't. But if you really need to be in the office for a reason, why wouldn't you just tell the truth? Why do you really want to be in the office, tell the truth, and so, a lot of times, what the spotlight of being a leader does is you're under spotlight and so you don't want to show your flaws, you don't want to show your ego, you don't want to show all the stuff that makes you human. What makes you human is not your perfection. That makes you robotic. What makes you human is the mistakes you make and what you learn from that. What makes you human is the ego you have. What makes you human is the envy you have. What makes it human is the anxiety you have. That's human. That's all human stuff. That's all human stuff. And so, with that being said, you hide all of that because you want to be this strong leader. And I was like I get it in certain situations. I get it.
Speaker 4:But if you are really nervous about remote work because you don't know if y'all can be productive, say that. Have that conversation up front. If you are not good with remote work because you are not good with remote work, say that, have that conversation. Why are we afraid to have that conversation? Instead of doing the truth, they say stuff like oh no, we work better in person. Then you get people in person who literally are like, well, where's everybody at? They're in meetings. I could have had this meeting online. Everybody's in meetings, and so I'm not a fan of the hiding your flaws approach to leadership.
Speaker 4:I'm also not a fan because what that does is that breeds the toxicity, because now it's jarring for people. You're saying one thing and people are experiencing an entirely different thing, and you've created a culture where they can't tell you because you're going to get defensive. You're going to get defensive, yada, yada, yada. And so my thing about diminishing that leadership backlash is leaders there needs to be. I think every person that is in leadership needs to have a coach or a therapist to be honest or both.
Speaker 4:But I think that's important, and I also think a lot of leaders need to learn more about themselves and diminishing their ego, because they're allowing their ego to take the wheel, because sometimes leaders are afraid to be wrong. Sometimes leaders are afraid to be vulnerable, and that's literally what the definition you know when we think about vulnerability. Vulnerability does not mean you're crying. Vulnerability actually means you're a little exposed and that's hard. I understand that's hard, but I think if people got to know you and what you are dealing with. They are going to follow you because they follow you, not your position, and so I think but that's a, it's a lost art, maybe we never had that art yes it is.
Speaker 4:But I'm like, but that's how you be human, that's how you be human.
Speaker 3:Kevin, this one's going down in the archives is like such a incredible combo, but I think this connects to what you said in the beginning Like shouldn't we be leading the way in that we exist to serve people?
Speaker 4:to wrap these wraparound services to people.
Speaker 3:And it's just not the case. So I got to connect this to this. Okay, so we have a couple of community members of we're for good. Evan and Michelle, I got to shout you out for doing this beautiful retention survey. They found 75% of folks serving in nonprofits are planning on leaving their job within the next two years, 18 months, something like that. Shocking, right, we feel like there is just this massive shocking, not shocking, yeah, shocking.
Speaker 4:Painful, I guess. Yeah, yeah, um right, we feel like there is just this massive Shocking not shocking, yeah, shocking, painful, I guess.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, absolutely so. Let's connect this to employee retention. I mean, we see it Now we have some informal data collection that's confirming that in our community, how can we start to shift this?
Speaker 4:I'm going to start at the top. So I'm going to start at the top. The nonprofit infrastructure, the nonprofit brand, whatever. The ethos of nonprofit is kind of weird. I've had to have conversations with nonprofits who are saying we are not social justice organizations, we're nonprofits and I'm like OK, what is? That. I mean, I'm like, what does?
Speaker 4:that mean? Because you are, I'm like what does that mean? So for me, let's let me let me define how I'm looking at it. So, the way I look at like a social justice in a standpoint, I look at human rights, you know so, providing everyone their basic human rights. So, if your nonprofit yada yada, yada, okay, if your nonprofit provides access to something resources I'm thinking you're a social justice organization. Three, participation we increase participation, ensure voices are heard from different communities. Well, if you do that, I think you're a social justice organization. And lastly, equity we take into account the different aspects of a system that perpetuates discrimination in different ways based on identity. If you do something like that, I think you're a social justice organization. So, no matter how many millions and billions of dollars that we're going to see on your 90s and stuff like that, you're a social justice organization.
Speaker 4:But what happened is you lost your soul, your organization lost its soul and you became the non-taxed corporate wing. Call it out, and you're right, and I'm just saying. And so I think, in order for us to shift the system, we got to look back at the soul, the ethos of this thing in the first place, and we have to do so you already have the audacious mission that's connected to making the world a better place. Why wouldn't you have the audacious mission to make sure your workplace is the best place too? It's parallel. It's parallel and, to be honest, if you were doing the inner fixing and cleaning up your house first, I think your outcome would be that much better too, because can you imagine the massive knowledge transfer that occurs when people leave in two years? That's ridiculous, and I know a lot of nonprofits don't have good knowledge management systems, because I'm seeing too many Excel spreadsheet processes. I'm going to be honest.
Speaker 4:So, with that being said, your people are your, your competitive advantage in a nonprofit, and yet we're talking about retention in 2024. It's wild. We could have been talking about how to be more inclusive globally. We could have been talking about how are we looking at diversifying our funding sources, because we want to make sure we're doing that for the long run. That's what we could have been talking about. We could have been talking about, but we're not necessarily there yet, because our soul is missing and I think we go back and there needs to be some retooling and retweaking I don't want to say dismantling, because people get scared when I say that. So let me say retooling and retweaking, but I really think we need to look back at, like, the values of the nonprofit in itself, because if they're just the non-tax corporate wing, why does it really need to exist? I'm sorry.
Speaker 2:I have so much to say about this and I'm going to talk about how I'm feeling. Yeah, and not what, because I don't know who's listening right now. But when you talk, kevin, now, but when you talk, kevin, I'm having all of this trauma come up for me of how I, just as one human being and I know there's got to be thousands of people out there listening who feel this who have felt the damage of these toxic work environments, of toxic leadership. I mean, I have spoken so openly about my nervous breakdown at the hands of nonprofit work, and it came because of some toxic leadership and because I didn't have cover and I was just absolutely steamrolled over by a bureaucracy and a culture that was cultural theater, it was all theater, and so one.
Speaker 2:I want to validate every single human who's listening to this and saying, yes, I have been hurt, I have been damaged. I mean, I've got the tears coming up in my eyes right now that we had been hurt by this culture and what I want to say to you is we can change it because, my gosh, not only are these missions worth it, but you, as a human being, are freaking worthy of working in this work and being healthy in it. So we are an activating community and I want to get to the freaking hope. I want to get to what we can do, and I want to ask you to break this down in two ways for me. I want you to talk about how individuals and teams can not only build resilience to navigate these cultures, but overcome these toxic workplace environments, and I would absolutely love it if you could break it down for us as someone who is a leader and someone who is not, because we're talking about power in one and another, where someone doesn't feel power. So talk to us about how we can get activated around this.
Speaker 4:Absolutely. Yeah, it sounds daunting, but nothing is hopeless, because we're homo sapiens and we are here for a reason too, you know so, like the spirit of a human. You know, we got it. So what I will say is we've survived as a species through collectivism. That is a fact. We did not survive as a species through individualism, but we've created an entirely individualistic culture, we've created entirely individualistic organizations and we're wondering why? Why do we feel so drained at work? Why doesn't work feel like it's like doing something positive to me? We're not individualists, we're collective. We work together, we're humans, right? So so, with that being said, that's what's. That's what it's going to take first. It's going to take connection first, on both parties, leadership and non kind of leadership roles first, on both parties, leadership and non-leadership roles. What I will say is the path is different, based off of your power in the system.
Speaker 4:I think for individuals in power, in formalized power, it is important for individuals in power to do more listening. It is important for individuals in power to literally set up time for listening. What I mean by that is like have a sequence of listening in your company. Don't just say you have an open door policy. You know people are overworked and they're not going to come through the door. You know people are not going to do it when you say it. Don't do that. Go to people, create that. You know. Don't like, like, like, like. You have the, you have the power. So create the systems, but you take the lead in seeking out feedback.
Speaker 4:As another thing that is important for leaders to think about is how often are leaders pausing and reflecting on the impact of their decisions? I think leadership teams need to create a formalized structure of reflection, because what leadership teams have done to their cultures in a lot of cases is they've trickled down something called hurry sickness, and what that is is essentially everybody's rushed, everybody's hurried, everybody's trying to be perfect in front of you, and they are looking at the leadership team like, wow, okay, well, you know what's the next ball that's going to drop and all that. So I think leaders need to up in that hurry sickness by leaders modeling, pausing and reflection and looking back, and there are processes that do that, called after action reviews and before action reviews, so you can know you're planning their equity impact analysis processes you can do before you make a decision, you know. So there are. There are processes all over the place that you can try out, but I think make that a part of your structure, because once you make stuff a part of your structure and you start practicing it, that's when stuff becomes normalized.
Speaker 4:You need a system to change a system. You can't just have bandaid fixes to change a system, so you need a new system. And so then I'm saying that the new systems that need to be created need to be formalized Listening, formalized reflection, formalized pausing. That needs to be systematized, just like accounting, you know. And so you need a system to change a system.
Speaker 4:Now, let's say I'm an individual and I don't, I'm not a leadership role. What can I do? I will say it's difficult because you let's say I'm going to use this quote just because you are on your healing journey doesn't mean everybody else around you is on your healing journey, right, and so what that's going to mean is, in order for you as an individual, in a system that's toxic per se, you may be trying to evoke change right now. We want to be more equitable, we want to do these difference, we want to pause, but yet you're getting pushed back with all these other norms. So what I will say is it will be important for individuals who may not have the formalized power to seek out individuals who do. First of all because that you know, again, we go further together and so I would look for individuals who have formalized power in the system. I'm also going to look for individuals who don't, because I want to build my tipping point. I want to build that critical mass and some of the research doesn't even say you need a majority to have a critical mass. It looks about 26 to 40% of people. So I'm going to start building that coalition of what we want to see and I need to find what are the avenues that we have to communicate upwardly and I'm going to utilize those avenues.
Speaker 4:Because here's what I've seen in systems. I've worked with systems who the employees kind of did a letter or wrote a letter or something like that, and they're writing all their concerns and their complaints and stuff like that and nothing really changed. It was all temporary, it was all band-aid fixed. They appeased your letter. That's a method. I'm not saying that, but I don't make that your only method.
Speaker 4:Look for like, be, be creative, and you suggest process changes and and suggest them in your department, because what I've seen scale, I've seen like, the. I'm going to use an example. I've seen, like the philanthropy department, start testing out a reflection period. They do this what's called a OODA loop O-O-D-A it's an acronym, but they do like a continuous improvement process in their work. Well, another department was like hey, y'all do that, that's pretty cool, can we join you in your next meeting? So then it scaled to another department, then it scaled to another department, then you have three VPs doing it. So now three VPs are bringing it to the rest of the VPs, so you can also start doing things in your department to make your department good. So here's what I call that.
Speaker 4:There's a difference between culture and climate. Organizational culture are the norms that feed the organizational climate. The organizational climate is what you feel, what you experience, what you see. That is climate. Culture are the norms that got that climate in the first place.
Speaker 4:So I'm going to be clear on my definitions here. Right, what you can do in your department is create an organizational climate cocoon or bubble, and what that means is your culture might suck around you, but I'm going to create a localized climate bubble in my department where my employees aren't looking to quit in two years, because here's what I've done in my climate bubble to protect them, to cover them as much as I can, and so I think the strategy needs to start localized, because that's how you're going to. Culture takes years to change. I'm going to be honest. Culture takes a long time to change, but we can make shifts in climate more rapidly, and so the individuals who are in departments need to look at what is our organizational climate bubble that we're going to create while we look at changing the culture, because the only way you're going to survive in culture change is if you have the climate bubble.
Speaker 3:Kevin.
Speaker 2:Dr Kevin Reginald-Sansbury, I am shook by you. I am so shook in the greatest possible way. John Emote, I can't, I just can't right now.
Speaker 3:I think you take something that it's easy for us, especially on a podcast, right, we can just have conversations forever. But the heart of even creating impact up is like, how do we move into activation? You know, like, how do you ever append these systems? How do you actually recreate, re-engineer, whatever we're talking about? And you just broke that down in a way that all of us have agency in that place, like we can all be that change, even if you're absorbed in the biggest, most bureaucratic giant organization. You can be that light, you know, and I just think that there's so much hope, there's so much opportunity. And, um, I think of, uh, lindsay Fuller of the teaching Well, and we'll link up her episode because, um, y'all, would be kindred spirits.
Speaker 4:Just like what a celebrity death bash moment of like yes, this is so beautiful. I love the meter so good.
Speaker 3:But Lindsay was, like you know, we need people also to like tend the soil, not just flight, but like could we tend the soil at this place, like is there something there that is worth preserving and saving and fighting for? And I just connect that of. I think a lot of people do have that passion Like lucky, lucky our industry, that that we have that piece. But we've got to fix the other pieces to, to to protect our people and to and to thrive.
Speaker 4:You know, yeah, and, and, and some of the some of the here's the. The biggest thing I want to just make sure people understand your organizational culture is going to be there, whether you tend to it or not. Organizational culture is going to be there, whether you tend to it or not. The default norms of your organizational culture are typically going to be the norms of the society in which that culture stands or sits. And so if you don't do anything about your organizational culture, what you're going to get is competition. What you're going to get are people with power plays. What you're going to get are perfectionism. What you're going to get are people with power power plays. What you're going to get are, uh, perfectionism. What you're going to get are some people being defensive. What you're going to get is micromanaging. I mean, you're going to get the default. You're going to get the default, and so if you don't do something about it, you're going to relegate back to what the default is, because that's where people came from and that's people are used to, that's that's people grew up in. Right, and, and speaking of grow up in. You're going to get people's childhood experiences too.
Speaker 4:I tell people all the time I can go, look at a playground and look at a workplace and see some of the same behaviors. They might look a little different, but I can see the same behaviors. I can see the bullies, I can see the loners. I can see the people that are having fun. I can see people who's walking in line late when the class already went to the cafeteria. You're still outside. What are you doing here? You're late. So I could see some of the similar behaviors. And so if we don't do anything actively about it, we're going to relegate back to the default.
Speaker 4:And so there are plenty of organizations who have DEI strategies, organizational strategies to get the work done better. Where's our culture strategy? Like literally, where's our cultural culture strategy? Because that's at the foundation of every outcome that we have is who we are as an organization. And to go back to that Lindsay's tin, the soil. We need to continually look at that soil. It's the foundation, it's the foundation, it's the roots, but yet we kind of do a set it and forget it, and that's not the way you want to treat culture.
Speaker 2:I'm telling you, I've been on the verge of tears this entire time, like happy tears, like processing tears. I just I really do feel so seen, I feel so much hope in this moment and I just I thank you for coming in and just saying it. I know I'm going to go back and listen to this podcast several times because I need to just ruminate and think about what you're saying, but please come to our July 11th event because Kevin is going to get his own stage. John and I are going to get the heck out of the way and just let Kevin do his thing, and we're going to go deeper into this. And, Kevin, we just put the foundation of everything that we talk about around story and I want to know is there a story of kindness, of generosity, of philanthropy, of something in your life where you felt profoundly changed that you might share with our audience today?
Speaker 4:change that you might share with our audience today. Sure, my story is around my own transformation as a leader as a person that was in a traditional power role In 2014, I was in this leadership development program and I had the benefit of going through some 360 kind of assessments with my staff and stuff like that, and you get to read what people think about you as a leader. That was my first time experiencing that and it was profound because I learned a lot of great things about me that I knew. I learned great things about me that I didn't know, but I also learned about not so great things about me of how knew. I learned great things about me that I didn't know, but I also learned about not so great things about me of how I impacted people. And that was a point where I had to kind of have that philosophical reality question that I talked to y'all about before, of what is reality, who I think I am or how I impact people. Wow, and I will come to this realization now with wisdom. That's 10 years ago. It's both.
Speaker 4:But where do I want to put my eggs? I put my eggs in how I impact people, how I show up, and so that experience changed me, because I could have read that and said no, what do they know? I'm the leader. You know like I need to be this way to do my job. No, no, no, no, no, no. I flipped the script on how I operate because I basically made my on the impact.
Speaker 4:Now I value my intent. I value and honor my intent, but I know my intent and who we all think we are is based off of who you want to be. It's based off of it's propped up by your biases, it's propped up by your mental models, it's propped up by your childhood. I know that for a fact on everybody on this planet and so, with that being said, who you're trying to be is not necessarily the way. I really think we need to be looking at it from a different angle, and that is how are we impacting people? And going from that angle, that's for me, it's more human-centric, and I think that that'll get you a lot further if we center who we impact.
Speaker 3:Kevin, are you tired of us reacting after each I?
Speaker 2:want just Kevin at my Thanksgiving table. I want him at Christmas. I want him to come have an Italian meal. I want more Kevin in my life. I know there are a lot of people nodding too.
Speaker 4:Can I leave one last thought for folks to think about as we depart?
Speaker 3:Please, we can call it a one good thing. I was about to ask you.
Speaker 4:I what? What I'm thinking about is, if we got on the table the difference between nice and kind, use the word kindness, and a lot of cultures are nice. They're not. A lot of. I don't. I don't know a lot of kind cultures. I know a lot of nice cultures. The nice cultures are the ones that sound great in the job interview. They're nice, they're super nice. Everybody's nice and friendly to you. That first week you get the red carpet rolled out, but then, under stress, they're no longer nice. Under stress, they're no longer nice.
Speaker 4:And if I break down and look at the etymology of the word nice, you know it goes back to ignorant in Latin, old French. It's stupid. What? Yeah, you know, not know, in Latin too. But if I go back to kind, it goes back to kin. You know kin, you know like, like connection, you know. And so to that standpoint, I'm tired of nice people. I'm honest, I'm tired of nice people. I don't want you to be nice to me because I want you to be kind to me. My staff, when they did that 360, they told me the goods and the bads, and it wasn't even that bad, but they told me things I needed to work on. That was so kind, that was kind. And I don't want to work in nice cultures, I don't want to be around nice people, I want to be around kind people, because kind people become kin. And I'm not saying work as family, I'm saying we become connected, we become together. You know what I mean, like we go further together. So be kind, build kind cultures, lead kindly.
Speaker 3:Can I talk about a kind friend in our world? Because Isla Malik knows you well and reaches out to us and is like y'all got to talk. You know, and I think I knew there's a lot of things we needed to talk about. But the moment in time that you're coming into our world to inform these conversations and to take it to a different space is kismet on every level. So I just really appreciate love, the person that you are, the way that you've shown up and you um, you know, are uplifting humanity through your work. So I know people listening are going to be like how can I get more Kevin in my life? Well, first download his podcast and go dive into all of this.
Speaker 2:He can be in your ears every day. More of this. I'm going over there. Please, please.
Speaker 3:What are the other ways people can connect with you, kevin, and just work with you? To all those, yeah.
Speaker 4:No, thank you. So I just I have a new website Kevra consulting dot com. I'll send you all the link so we can put in the show notes. New website. It illustrates the culture and climate work I mean, I actually measure.
Speaker 4:So I have a, I have a methodology in which I actually measure your culture, I don't, and employee engagement is a outcome variable, y'all. So if y'all are measuring employee engagement, you are too upstream or too downstream. You need to go upstream, measure why your employee engagement's that way in the first place. So I measure, not only measure employee engagement, I measure your culture. We do that every five years. I measure your climate. We do that annually and we can look at your outcomes like trust and engagement and burnout. That's outcome. All the psychometrics that exist a lot of them they measure outcome variables. Why don't we go upstream and measure the reasons why the outcome variables are there in the first place?
Speaker 4:So my website I can outline that I also do a lot of work in one-on-one with leaders and so I'm Hogan certified and so Hogan is the assessment that actually coined the dark sides of personality and my CEO narcissism research is based in Hogan's research and so I'm able to work with leaders and actually give you a complete profile of how you show up both your light side and your bright side, or your bright side and your dark sides and provide tips on how you know.
Speaker 4:I know a lot of well-meaning people who want to be kind, and if you want to like, systematize that for yourself, I'm all for that. And then, yeah, lots of things on there. And then, most importantly, all your listeners can reach out to me. On my website, on my contact us page, I have a button you literally can click and you can send me a voicemail. Anywhere in the world you are, and it will email me and I will reply back to you and give you a voicemail back, and we can like talk asynchronously. Now I'm your coach in your pocket, and so feel free to visit me for that service too, at kevraconsultingcom.
Speaker 2:I mean, I want to click it.
Speaker 2:And can I bring us back to the beginning? You have centered humanity in this conversation. You have centered humanity in every single response. This has been a hard conversation and I have to say I think it's been the best conversation. Dr Kevin, reginald Stansberry, I have to get your middle name at some point, so I'll quit calling you Reginald. Thank you from the bottom of our hearts for this is an Isla Malik quote for the way you move in this world, the way you move through it, and thank you for coming into this community and just awakening our hearts and our minds to go and do more good. You're a treasure, truly.
Speaker 4:Thank you Be kind to yourself.